Becoming a Fractional HR Leader with Azan Khan

“When you start getting into fractional HR, you really have to start voicing your strengths to individuals that may not understand it fully, or may not understand that they need your help.”
-Azan Khan

Are you a corporate HR leader who has heard of fractional HR leader roles and wondered secretly if maybe that could be an option for you one day?  Or perhaps the whole concept is new to you?   Listen to today’s guest as he describes his experience of moving into this kind of work.  

My guest is Azan Khan.  Azan has over 20 years of experience, specializing in governance, risk management, and organizational growth. He is a Certified Human Resources Professional (CHRP) and has a proven track record of leading teams and driving strategic initiatives that enhance workforce effectiveness and brand management.

As the owner and Vice President of Human Resources at ARK International Inc., Azan provides executive human capital consulting and strategic planning. His responsibilities include organizational design, talent acquisition, compensation strategies, and performance management. He also serves as an executive advisor for a startup focused on workforce psychological health and safety.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

• How a background in ISO auditing can parlay into a career in HR
• The challenges and rewards of being a fractional HR leader and consultant
• Examples of how to do skill mapping effectively and efficiently

Links

• Azan Khan on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/azan-khan-chrp-3088b81/ 

Looking for a Team Coach or dynamic Keynote Speaker/Facilitator?

Book a call with me to explore how we might partner (serious inquiries only please):

https://calendly.com/lisa-mitchell-greenapple/clarity-call

Share the Show

Like what you’ve heard? Pretty please with an apple on top - kindly leave me a 5* review so that others can find the show and elevate their impact too! Here are the simple instructions:

• Launch Apple's Podcast app on your iPhone or iPad.
• Tap the Search icon (on the botton) and search for the show name.
• Tap the show's cover art.
• On the podcast page, tap the Reviews tab.
• Tap "Write a Review" at the bottom of this page.

Follow me

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-mitchell-acc-ctdp-7437636/

Instagram: @greenappleconsulting

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/greenappleconsulting.ca

Transcript

Are you a corporate HR leader who's heard of fractional HR leader roles and wondered secretly if maybe that could be an option for you one day? Or perhaps the whole concept is new to you. Listen to today's guest as he describes his experience of moving into this kind of work. My guest is AAN Khan.

Azan has over 20 years of experience specializing in governance, risk management, and organizational growth. He has his CHRP and a proven track record of leading teams and driving strategic initiatives. As the owner and VP of HR at ARC International, Azan provides executive human consulting and strategic planning.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you'll discover how a background in ISO auditing can parlay into a career in hr, the challenges and rewards of being a fractional HR leader and consultant, and examples of how to do skill mapping effectively and efficiently. Enjoy the episode.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truths. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today my guest is AAN Khan. Azan is the owner and founder of Arc Consulting Canada. Welcome to the show, aan.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: My pleasure. Let's, let's kick off, shall we? So you have an interesting background, and I'm hoping you'll share it with us.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Oh, wonderful. Yes. Well, you know, I did start outside of hr, I started with ISO consulting. I was an ISO internal auditor, which then turned into a lead auditor for the organization that I was with. It was quite by accident that I moved myself into hr. It seems that, the, the world at large just wanted to push me in that direction.

I'm very good with people. I'm very good with mapping people against process. And being from the ISO world I've been able to make sure that that mapping is a little bit more accurate than some of my colleagues that I've met.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: So, so what, like what did sort of draw your awareness to HR as a possibility? I.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: as I move forward in my career. Moved into resource management and project management. Just realized that my ability to conflict manage and to see people for who they are, rather than only what they can do was something that lent itself to that HR comp component. It wasn't only myself that looked at hr, it was a, a director at the time, and tapped me on the shoulder and said, listen, you know what, have you ever thought about this field?

And when I investigated it more, it just seemed to fit better.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: So fascinating. Okay, so you've, you've worked in a, in a couple different industries. Tell us about that.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Been in it, I guess the beginning of my career with ISO was in an IT shop helping them get through their ISO certification. So it is one. Then consulting services again with an IT slant, but it was more on a learning and development perspective. And that was with a global organization delivering compliance information and and training globally.

I. Later on moved into insurance property and casualty insurance where I helped them put together resource matrix and new performance management systems, as well as helping them tidy up their corporate culture. And the list goes on from there and finally landing into fractional hr.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Got it. Yeah. Okay. So that is your core focus today. I know you work with a few organizations as a fractional CHRO and you're, you know, doing a variety of things depending on the company and their needs. Could you walk us through a little bit what that, what that looks like?

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Absolutely. In the fractional space a lot of the organizations that look for that kind of service are small to mid-size companies that they don't have the budget to have a robust HR team. And so what, what I do and, and a few of my colleagues do is that we help them through that. In the beginning you, you would think that it would be mostly about taking care of employee conflict, but it's turned into a little bit more than that, a little bit more tactical and strategic in nature.

Small companies looking to grow into the mid-size. Grouping or, or, or position or mid-size companies wanting to grow further as well, maybe go regionally that kind of thing. And they're looking for advice on how to develop a a people compliment or at least a workload compliment. And then an organization that would lend itself to that growth Back in the day, I think a lot of companies only talked about, or look, looked at their service mo model. But recently I've noticed a lot of companies taking more of a holistic perspective and looking at not just what they offer as an organization, but how they support it with their employee base. And so putting a lot of focus on total rewards and things like that. And that's where I come in and I help 'em through some of that thinking.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Okay. Okay. So, for some listeners, I know some of you're thinking, ah, that's something I'd like to do when I grow up one day in the next adventure. I. I'm just curious, like what have been the challenges and the rewards of making this transition from working in corporate as an HR leader to supporting HR leaders as a kind of extra brain and pair of hands.

I.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Well, I guess the biggest challenge is being more entrepreneurial in thought. When you're delivering HR as part of a large organization, you are already part of the plan. And when you start getting into fractional hr, you really have to start voicing your strengths to individuals that may not understand it fully or maybe not, maybe not understand that they need your help.

And so you have to have that entrepreneurial spirit and have a strategy on how to go about marketing yourself. And I think that was the biggest thing because we're so used to thinking about Our strengths and our capabilities from a service offering from within. HR has always been seen by many as a support department, and when you get into fractional hr, you are a driving force for your own business.

So that would be the biggest challenge once you get over that hurdle it, it, it is quite. Seamless after that, because you become a confidant and an advisor to many organization leaders, whether it be the owner or a board. In, in one case, I was dealing with a board of directors for health services and sometimes they, they just need a, a, another set of eyes to walk them through some problematic situations.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Yeah.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: And, and when you get into that advisory role, it starts to take over, right?

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting 'cause I've, I went on my own about seven and a half years ago after 30 years in corporate. So as a consultant, it, it is a different perspective that you have on things, right? Because, you know, you've gotta create your own drive. You, you've gotta. Find the business, find your ideal clients, help them understand why they would want you.

Right? So it's, it's helping them see that opportunity. So all that, you know, the entrepreneurial shift, it's not for everyone. I have plenty of friends that tried it and went back and that's not to say that there's anything wrong with them, but they just, it was an experiment and they realized they didn't like that aspect of it, that wasn't a shift that interested them once they'd tried it on for size.

So that's partly why I asked because there's lots of people in the space that may. Like us move in and out. Right. Internal, external. So it's, it's fascinating. What would you say has been the biggest reward of doing this kind of work?

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Oh you see so much you experience so much. So it's, it's one thing to be within an organization and go from project to project and map out your strategies and, and take it through that, that particular timeline. But when you're dealing with multiple organizations that have different focuses and then different styles of managing and different styles of of thinking about what their, their value proposition is.

You have to become extremely flexible, extremely open-minded, and your communication skills go through the roof. If you think that you're a good communicator. Today, after working with multiple individuals, coming from all directions, that communication stands, it tends to go. Through the roof. your ability to listen is also something that starts to improve.

So these rewards take you through every aspect of life, not just your professional life.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Absolutely. Well, and something too that, you know, when I think about how, how does it serve me? So it's absolutely like the variety, the different people, the broader perspective, right? Learning to really listen almost in a, like there's similarities but in a slightly different way. I love, you know, the entrepreneurial.

Kind of lifestyle in terms of the, the white space and the time freedom that it gives me. So I work really, really hard, but it's on my terms around the times that I want to be available for work. Has that been true for you at all, or are there any other kind of personal, personal perks that you enjoy as a result?

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Well, you know, for me, you end up driving your, your career a little bit more than when you're working with an organization that has a, a plans mapped out for your role. So that would be one of my personal gains there. To your point about being able to manage your schedule, it can go both ways.

As you know that, you know, our business. As much as it may not feel to be seasonal, it, it is seasonal. There, there are times where the majority of the workforce is on vacation and and when they get back, it's giddy up, let's get going. And so you could end up with 14 hour days and you can end up with three hour days.

You can end up with days where you have free time. Totally. And then next thing you know, it's like, oh, four or five clients are calling me at the same time. So, it's, it's being able to juggle that time. And knowing that as an advisor, you are expected to be available to a certain degree. it also depends on how you write your contract.

With fractional hr, there's a lot of different ways that you can skin that cat. You know, you can say, listen, I'm a retainer and I'm available 24 7 based on your needs. Or you can say, listen, you know what, these are my business hours and you can call me anytime between now and then. and these are the kinds of questions that I will field, you know, you, you can have any marriage of that in any of the contracts you have, depending on the businesses that you're dealing with. If it happens to be a 24 7 manufacturing firm and part of that service that you're delivering is in occupational health and safety, you might need to be available. So, so, yeah.

Being able to drive your career a little bit more by picking and choosing what kinda work you want to engage in is, is really, really nice to have.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. I remember when I was thinking about going on my own, when, you know, some of the reflection I did was around what do I want more of and what do I want less of? Right. And there were certain things I just didn't wanna spend time on anymore. and yeah, so it's an interesting exercise for people to do.

Okay. Let's, let's switch gears a little bit. Thank you for pulling back the curtains and sharing a bit about your experience. Now. Something you'd mentioned to me when we first talked was that because you work with a lot of small businesses, you'd notice that for some of them, you know, it's, it's been quite the transition and it is ongoing to, you know, getting comfortable with the hybrid workplace.

And I was hoping you could share a couple examples or, or sort of little insight into what you mean with that. Like what do you see them doing and, and what are your tips around how to help them?

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, after the pandemic. And actually during the pandemic, this really hit home for a lot of small businesses. They had to react really quickly just to try and keep their businesses afloat and they weren't prepared. You know, not all small businesses have a, a laptop for every single employee.

And not all roles in small business requires or it gives you the the capability to, to perform it remotely. So there was a huge shift in the way those, so organizations not only thought about work, but also had to work. And as a result, there was a lot of layoffs. Unfortunately I was called in for a couple of those types of requests were to help with downsizing organizations, but those that stayed afloat, they started to think about things from.

A very consultative perspective in a way where they can communicate more through different social, social media platforms if they didn't have the budget to have their own intranet. Or they can communicate through teleconference and whatnot. And, and, and the biggest shift, because with small business, it's, it is generally a mom and pop situation where they have.

Extreme ownership, like on almost in, in, you know, complete ownership of everything. Not just the business, but everything that happens within they don't really let go of a lot of, of that because it's such a passionate situation for them. So when you have employees that you can't see anymore working in your shop or working in on your floor floor space, then you feel that you're.

You're letting your business run away from you from an owner's perspective and finding mechanisms to to allow them to feel that. Connection with their employees, again, without seeing them physically and having the trust in the employees is, is really the first, first step. And that takes a lot of conversation before we just start going.

And one, one of my tactics that I use is before I start advising individuals to go and just start delegating work, is to have a series of town hall meetings and or just one, you know, group conversations where they talk about. What it is that we're dealing with and how we expect to map out the future.

And what, what is the expectation for communication? How often do you need to be available? When should you be available? And what kinds of projects are going to be addressed through a hybrid situation or even a remote work situation? Once you have the ground worlds down, then the next steps in operating become much easier.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: So what I heard there, just to, just to underscore for listeners, is it lots of discussion. Don't rush it. Have, you know, you know, talk to people about what, what we're, what we're trying to do. Set some ground rules.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Absolutely. You know, communication is often left to the wayside thinking that we all speak English, so we're all gonna be able

to get through it, right. But the, the method and expectation within the communication doesn't get addressed. And if it doesn't get addressed properly, then you end up with problems.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Well, and what I see a lot is, ' cause I do a lot around, around change management as well too. So where, you know, leaders, whether I'm working with them, one-on-one or in a team coaching kind of setting, they're, they get frustrated when, well, we've told people what to do and what we're doing and blah, blah, blah, and, and they're not doing what we want them to do.

And so when you break it down, they may have in a lot of cases, told them. Once and, and you know, it never checked for understanding not circled back to, you know, to listen. Like, because with telling comes listening and vice versa. Right. So it's, it's fascinating. That's often the, the place that, you know, we end up starting is, okay, well, how could you find out what they did understand?

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Well, you know

what? That's a really good question. Yeah. You asked them and, but there's also other, a few other tactics, and one of the ones that I advise my clients on is that, you know, I take some of what I learned in the boardroom and I bring it to small and midsize companies, and I'm like, oh. So I, so I tell them, I, when you put together a meeting.

Assign one or two people to take minutes. if they're writing down what's being discussed, they're going to internalize it more. And, and if you give it to them as a deliverable, 'cause they've gotta hand it back to you, they're gonna make sure it's more complete than if they took the notes for themselves.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Oh yeah. I'm a huge fan of Don't own that Monkey. No, no, no. That rotates. That rotates. But also at the end of every meeting, let's go over and. And, and review what are the action items and commitments people have made, and make sure everybody's clear on them right before we leave. Like there's an expectation that we're gonna pull the thread on these.

Yeah. And, and that gets missed. A lot of people do these sort of fly by the seat of their pants for meeting behavior and, and you know, I hear about it all the time. Oh, these useless meetings and da da. Anyway. Interesting. Okay. Okay. So, so let's I wanna move on because there's a, an important topic where you've got some expertise that, that I think would be really helpful to share, which is.

you've done a lot of work in the mapping of skills and experience, and this could be for succession planning or, you know, talent review or strategy and so on. Could you kind of tell us a bit first about what it is and then we'll, we'll sort of dig into how you do it and some actual examples.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Absolutely. Like, so, so when I started in the part of my career where I was a resource manager, it would've been in, I'm gonna date myself a little bit now, but it, it would've been in the the late nineties and,

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Oh, oh, whores.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: At the time my director said, listen, you're gonna be a resource manager. And I didn't know what that meant. So I went to my, so my search engine

to, uh, to figure that out. And I, I was on Netscape. I mean, they didn't have, like, Yahoo wasn't something that we were using at the time. I had America Online email account.

I didn't have a Yahoo account. Gmail was not even in the radar, on the radar at all. And so when I typed in resource management what came up was forestry. It wasn't the management of people, it wasn't the management of skill, it wasn't the management and mapping of utilization and all that stuff. So I basically had to, use my own, ingenuity in order to come up with something, to do something for our team. And I was managing a global team at the time.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: So what was the goal? Like, what did they want you to accomplish as resource manager? Just so we know what your, your mindset was.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: well, the goal was to optimize all of our productivity. And in order to do that, I needed to be able to map skill and experience so that I can deploy to initiatives.

And, and because we were dealing with a resource matrix it wasn't just putting together a team that was already canned.

It was picking and choosing individuals of different disciplines and different skill sets in order to build a team. And then once that project was delivered, then you. To span that group and then you rebuild another project. Or sometimes you can have one individual running on three projects at the same time because they've got a little bit of utilization on each project.

It's not fully utilized on all projects. Right. But I found that we were going into meetings and we're talking about who we needed and what we needed in terms of skill sets, and it was taking very, very long to get through all of the conversation. We needed a person to list all of these skills and. So I figured we needed to come up with a, a little bit more concise language in order to identify individuals.

And this is where some of the people that I, I talked to about this sort of gasp because they are like, oh, you're taking the humans out of. The, the equation, you're not talking about people by their names anymore. You're, it's not Lucy. It's not Joe. It's, you know, this other thing, and I put together a se series of alpha numerics in order to describe individuals, and, but at the end of the day, it took what would typically be a, anywhere between a 35 to 45 minute conversation, down to 10 to 15 minutes. And we were able to deploy individuals globally more effectively and track them globally and understand them a little bit better as well when it, when it came to their career progression and their capabilities within the organization.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: So how do you take a number and ascribe a skill to it?

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Right. So first is coming up with categories, right? So, instead of saying you know, this is, you're a junior person, you're an intermediate person, or, or, or a senior individuals, we gave them a rating of one, two, and three. Now let me just take one second if you don't mind, and explain how I started thinking about junior, intermediate and senior differently.

I, I interviewed a number of directors and vice presidents at the time. I asked them, what is Junior? and, and, and they always gave me a a duration of time. Somebody who's operated in a skillset between one to three years or one to two years or something like that. And it's right across the board.

They were giving me number of years of service when we're explaining skills. And as a resource manager, that made no sense to me because I could have somebody coming outta school. And very good with a skill and somebody working with a skill for many years and not, not very great at it. You know what I mean?

So, I wanted to get a better reading. So with a junior individual they needed to know what, or at least to have the capability to do what they needed to do, right? And gonna focus on Ws. So every expectation from a manager was that a junior individual knew what they wanted to do, how they want to do it, what they wanna do.

An intermediate knew when they wanted to do it, so they were more process centric. So they were able to string together all the, what's into a sequence to tell you that this is the. A group of skills that need to be exercised to perform a job. Right? So they knew what, and they knew when, and a senior individual knew why.

They put context to the what and when we're performing this process, we're performing, we're gonna integrate, interacting this project because it solves this business problem. They knew the whys. Right. So those are my three Ws, you know, so a junior individual is what intermediate is when and what, and the senior is when, what and why. And the reason why I put it like that is because when I talk to individuals and I ask them what they're doing or, or what's happening in their lives today, if they answered me with all of the what's automatically, because that's where their brain is at, they're a junior thinker.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: I follow. Okay. Okay. Interesting. So, so when it comes to actual, so that's kind of level, right? What about when it comes to particular skills or skill families? I.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: So we, we, we map all of the skills and then all the what wins and whys they're, they're given an a attribute, so ability attribute. So, a junior will be a, a one, intermediate, A two, and then seniors a three. And then I talk to all of the individuals. I get feedback from them. How motivated are they to perform that skill?

If they're low motivation, it becomes a motivation factor. What we identify as an MM one for low M two for moderate M three, four very motivated. So, you know, you, you're doing podcasts, so you've got an A three skill set and an M three motivation, so your A 3M three. And so that's how we take all of this discussion.

We break it down into three characters, a 3M three for example, for yourself and doing podcasts. And that explains everything I need to know if I need to assign you to another podcast project,

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: I see. Okay, so. What's a, what's an example of a practical application from, you know, doing this mapping and, and what it, what it allowed the business to do differently or better?

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: right? So, I said earlier, we, we reduced a lot of the time we spent in meetings because we didn't have to discuss all of the nuances of individuals. It allowed us to pay more attention to motivation levels. Because now we're talking about motivation and, and then when we started talking about motivation, we started talking about flight risks.

So we started to add a third component. So you had the ability, the a's, the motivation, the m and then the R for flight risk. And then the higher the flight risks, the, the higher the, the numbers. So highest flight risk is. R three. So when we started thinking about this, we were not only deploying individuals to work that they wanted to do and liked to do because their motivation was great, but we were able to actually give them more of that kind of work.

So we increase that frequency of work so that we can reduce their flight risk number to a lower number. And when we started looking individuals in this three dimensional aspect, right, we started to develop a better retention level. So our attrition rates were amazing. Went down to like 4%, we were able to get much more high functioning, I guess, project teams because they were much more involved.

They gave better feedback. They they were passionate about their work.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Because it really reminds me of, you know, I've led a lot of strategic succession planning for organizations and, and, you know, flight risk was something that we Absolutely. Quantified for, for everybody. And we also looked at not necessarily motivation, but we looked at aspiration.

Because in the, in the context of succession planning, you know, for upward movement or taking on greater portfolios, what, you know, what was the aspiration there? So similar to the motivation. So it is it, these are key. And I remember at the time those were not things that. People were doing broadly, they were looking at performance and then somehow potential and quantifying that based on kind of hearsay or gut feel, right, and adding these other pieces in really makes a difference.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Absolutely. And if I could add one more thing, I mean, there's a lot of organizations that they first look at their high performers and they do succession plans for them, and they forget about everybody else. So, you know, by mapping everyone in the organization, you don't have the risk of forgetting about somebody.

And you can take somebody that's low motivated and easily jack them up to where their motivation levels are getting even more and more and more intense and higher. It it, it led us into mentorship programs. Coaching programs, peer to peer buddy systems where we would take M twos, match them up with M ones, and all of a sudden the M ones turned into M twos, you know, and vice, you know, it just went on and on and on.

So it, it, it, it didn't end up developing a life of its own.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. With the M ones, did they know that they were listed as M1? Like

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Yes, absolutely. Everybody knew everything. So, so you you, we had a, a COBOL programmer for example, right? He, he is been doing programming for 20 years. He was an A three M1, so high ability, but didn't wanna program in COBOL anymore. That's okay. And, and when we. Looked at those M ones, we can talk to them, develop a new conversation saying, why do you feel that this is no longer a skill that you're interested in?

And many times we can start to trend when skills were going out of style. For example, you know, before the market actually showed that they were going outta style because our developers were already moving on to new technologies, right?

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Right.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: And their motivation levels were going down on current or obsolete technologies.

And so we were able to manage how we negotiated our licenses, for example, with Microsoft and otherwise, because we're like, you know, we're not gonna use this in two years because we can already see our architects are not interested, you know, and have different kind of conversations with vendors.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Interesting. I mean, that's really, you know, hinting at the whole concept of meta data. Like, what's the story that the data's telling us? So it really sounds like this was a valuable tool for you to be able to then, you know, apply real time to be able to deploy people appropriately and to, and to make things better really for them ultimately.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: The amazing part Lisa, was that we did this with an Excel spreadsheet.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it doesn't sound like it would be super complicated, right? So it's very doable and realistic. So for listeners, 

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: Yeah, you, you don't have to have ai.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I, I think it's so important that we keep things simple because if we, if we complexify, then nobody's gonna do it or maintain it or, right.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Isan. It was really, really wonderful hearing you share about the skills mapping as well as your, your, your background. Really, really appreciate your time today.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate2: My pleasure. It was wonderful having a conversation.

Azan Khan GMT20240905-194134_Recording_separate1: Awesome. Thanks again.