Advocacy and Allies: Building Lasting Stakeholder Relationships with Melissa Law

“Our purpose and our value is to be able to diagnose and consult and create something valuable and meaningful. It is not our role, and our value does not come from taking orders and just doing what people say.” - Melissa Law

Ever been frustrated with talent initiatives that get built but don’t make it across the finish line when it comes to implementation and adoption by the business? How can middle stakeholders, such as regional operations directors and HR business partners, be effectively engaged to drive adoption and support for new initiatives?

Today’s guest is back for her 5th appearance on the show and she shares several must-have conditions that ensure your initiatives will make it past the concept stage. 

My guest is Melissa Law. Melissa has 25+ years of progressive leadership experience, spanning five industries.  Melissa has had the opportunity to work with several large Canadian organizations including Walmart, Aecon, and Revera.  At present, she is the Vice President – Culture, Talent, and OD at Liberty Utilities.  As an Associate Certified Coach and Certified Professional Co-Active Coach, Melissa founded Sunrise Coaching. She is also a graduate of Queen’s MIR Program and an active alumnus of Trent University where she received her Bachelor of Administrative Studies.  

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

• Ideas on how to overcome the issue of stakeholders prescribing solutions prematurely
• Strategies to empower middle stakeholders in talent management initiatives
• Tips on project governance frameworks that can help with role and process clarity

Links

• Melissa Law on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-law-cpcc-acc-22ba3421/ 

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Transcript

LM Ep 126

 [00:00:00] Ever being frustrated with talent initiatives that get built on your end, but don't make it across the finish line when it comes to implementation and adoption by the business. How can middle stakeholders such as regional operations directors [00:01:00] and HR business partners be effectively engaged to drive adoption and support for new initiatives?

Well, today's guest is back for her fifth appearance on the show, and she shares several must have conditions that ensure your initiatives will make it past the concept stage. My guest is Melissa Law. Melissa has more than 25 years of progressive leadership experience spanning five different industries.

She's worked with large Canadian organizations including Walmart, acon Rivera, and at present she's vice President of Culture, talent, and OD at Liberty Utilities. She's also a practicing executive coach. In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you'll discover ideas on how to overcome the issue of stakeholders prescribing solutions prematurely, strategies to empower middle stakeholders in talent management initiatives and tips on project governance frameworks that can help with role and process clarity.

I hope you have fun geeking out with us. Enjoy. 

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: [00:02:00] Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truth. I'm your host, Elisa Mitchell, and today I am joined by Melissa Law. You may recognize Melissa's name. She's been on the show I think four times before. This is her fifth appearance. Melissa is Vice President of Culture and Talent at Liberty Utilities.

And she's the wonderful personal friend of mine after all these years and time together. Welcome back, Melissa.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: Oh, thank you for the welcome, Lisa. I'm excited to be here and talking with you again.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Me too. Me too. Well, this time we've chosen our theme ahead of time. And, and we wanna dig into this topic of, you know, how do you get stakeholders to actually wanna implement. Execute on your talent programs. So way back at the, the beginnings over two years ago when I started this podcast, you were one of my, I think you were my first guest, episode one, and we talked about how to build buy-in with stakeholders.

At the time, we were focused more on those senior levels, right? How to build buy-in at, at the [00:03:00] executive table. Which is kind of where you have to start. So today we wanna sort of dig into, you know, once you've got that and now you're trying to actually move things into the organization and you're needing stakeholders like regional.

Ops directors or HR business partners, you know, outside of, you know, if you've got a COE structure to, to want to execute and implement. So we wanna kinda see where that takes us. Anything to add, Melissa?

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: You know, well, as I was listening. Of course I start thinking, and it all leads to the ultimate buy-in, and that's the end user. Are they going to want to take advantage of and, and leverage whatever it is that you have ruled out, that you've created. And so this middle group is so important because they're, they're part of the sales team to make it happen and to get people to say, yeah, I wanna do that.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Right. They're, they're really critical to adoption, right, to creating that tipping point of any kind of change or [00:04:00] transformation. Okay. Well, you know, I sometimes hear, and I've talked about it on the show before, that often Some of my clients podcast guests even have shared that stakeholders sometimes see them as order takers.

And this happens more I think, you know, on the l and d side, but perhaps for some performance consultants and so on. So the client will come, the stakeholder and say, I need this and here's what I want you to do about it. Like, they prescribe the solution upfront. And we both know that taking that and running with it isn't.

Really the way to go. So do you have an example of that from your life? It could be going way back, it could be more recent.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: Yeah, well one that I have, I have come up. Against I, I actually paused and I used that word, but come I've had to, to help people on the team maneuver through. Most commonly has been when subject matter experts from the business are saying, listen, we need to get this training out to people. They [00:05:00] need to learn about this policy, or they need to learn about this SOP, or they lead to learn and we need to record from a compliance perspective.

You know that they, they are good with the code of conduct or anti-bribery or anti-corruption or cybersecurity or anything that might have some kind of compliance piece to it. And what I find is, you know, that is probably the most common example that comes to my mind is that here we need to do this. Go do it.

Let me know when it's done. I need e-learning to get this message out to people.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Yes. And have you ever, you know, earlier in your career, taken it and run with it and just said, oh, okay. Okay. Got it. We'll do it.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: Yeah, that's a great question. I, I don't think I have, but I have seen it happen and come in, in and worked with people or, or got support for people where it's motion. [00:06:00] And we had to say, whoa, hold on. How are we going to do this? Because what starts to happen is you get a passionate subject matter expert who says, we're gonna create this e-learning module.

And either A, they don't know where to start. Or B, they come with pages and pages and pages and wealth of information. I think of one particular example at company past where, you know, the, the Smee comes with, well, here's my, here's my presentation. I need to turn this presentation into an e-learning module.

Well, first of all, it was w it wasn't a presentation and you know, having, helping to have those conversations of, okay, well it's not just putting words to a deck and, you know, there are some things that make a good e-learning module and something that makes. E-learning. And so really working through with those SMEs to [00:07:00] create a storyline for them where they can review and see what is the, the main message, what is the interaction how are we going to do knowledge checks and those types of things.

Because otherwise, what you end up with, and I have seen this happen, is you end up with an e-learning module that has, you know. 60 slides to it and it takes an hour and a half to complete. And I have yet to find anyone in any of the organizations I've been to who say that was a great e-learning module when it gets launched like that.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: I was just talking with. An old high school friend of mine, and she's been going through a really rough time the last few years, lost both parents, and she works in healthcare, so she'd been off taking care of her dad for two full years and, and goes back. So she's behind on all of the mandatories, all the compliance training like you're describing.

So everybody's gotta do their annuals, their annual compliance training, and she's got additional ones to [00:08:00] catch up on, if you will.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: Yeah.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Me on Sunday night. She goes, oh my God, I don't know what they're thinking. The privacy one has to be done every year. It's not just me catching up. It's 90 minutes. So it was just death by slide.

So I, you know, I think I, I can also think when I was at Sears Canada Oh, ever so briefly, and I was running employee experience for their contact center division. And so a couple years before they went down, I, I left in time, but I met great people there and we did some great work. It's so sad what happened there.

But I remember coming in and there was a training team in Belleville that I had inherited again, amazing people. And there was a lot of this kind of stuff, right? Like e-learning, just take this stuff, we need to get it out to the floor. And there was no no real concept about working with the, the SMEs about bringing what you know about great e-learning to bear.

Right? And, and the other thing that was often missing was what's the end in mind? So when I got there, for instance, there were a lot of, [00:09:00] supposedly. Mandatory annual mandatories and mandatory onboarding stuff for frontline staff. And not all of it was done regularly. Like it, it was it, you know, so a lot of it was get going unused, or there was like additional sort of supplementary stuff that had been built because it was this dire need at, at the time and, and it was completely ignored.

So that kind of makes me think, okay, so not only do we need, you know. You had said to me earlier, confident learning people HR people that are working with the business, with the SMEs, we need them to be confident and bring their craft to bear, but we also need to help people get really clear with what's the end in mind.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: because otherwise you're just, it's almost like, you know, spitballs on the wall and which one sticks

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: yeah.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: for the analogy. But that confidence in having the end in mind is important because then as you [00:10:00] know, the, the learning specialist or manager or whatever role you have in your organization, they feel confident that you're guiding them.

Towards something that they will say yes to. And that maybe I can't say it for all compliance modules no matter what, but maybe people aren't going to, you know, roll their eyes over and say, that was painful. Why do we have to do this?

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Right. So we want there to be clarity, even if they didn't love it, right, that they understand why they had to do it. And that they that they have a sense that there was some effort to make it efficient and as painless as possible.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Well and. It's quite helpful for whatever team is responsible for this, that they have really clear and consistent guidelines or a framework of governance so that there is [00:11:00] consistency and clarity around what is your role as the subject matter expert as the requester. What is my role as the. The subject matter expert in learning, design, development, and delivery.

And what are the, the phases or the milestones that we're gonna go through to get to the in and product pilot launch. And I find that that really helps because in a lot of organizations, you know, business. Subject matter experts or business leaders, they're busy running the business. They're not thinking about learning.

Right? So you gotta, you've gotta make it easy and say, here's how it's going to work, so that they can focus on the piece, that they can contribute the best, which is their knowledge, but the team can then take that knowledge into, make it into something that is applicable and valued.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Hallelujah. Yeah. So just to kind of just underscore what you said, teams need a framework of governance, [00:12:00] right? For. How you're gonna work with your stakeholders in the business now. I think that's a you know, a little further along the maturity continuum. You know, once, once a, a learning ODHR department has been established and can start to create these expectations.

But, you know, in some cases there's been no thought to that, even if the departments existed for some time or it's early days. You know, I'm, I'm working right now with one of Canada's biggest grocery companies actually. So I'm working behind the scenes with a, a new. Leader who's brilliant but is new to the field.

And you know, it was funny 'cause they had a request come in. It's a great example actually of what we're talking about for training in the stores for specialty areas, sort of in the deli section. Okay. So, so the operations managers and or directors were coming in and saying. There's no consistency.

They're doing displays differently. The quality seems to be different, like it's all over the map. And we need you to create some training, do an e-learning and fix them. Fix the [00:13:00] performance. I. You're laughing and I, I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. Alright, so this, this newer leader, she's like, so I, I guess we should sit down and, you know, they gave us all these, they gave us all these SOPs and we're supposed to put them into e-learning.

And so I was gonna start working with my learning designer and I'm like, oh, okay. Hang on a second. So let's just back up 'cause here's a great example of, of how we can add way more value here. We can actually have a positive impact on overall efficiency, quality, bottom line for the company. Right. Versus creating something heavy that may not actually end up getting used.

'cause So here's the, we created some needs assessment questions. She went out with her team, visited various stores. What we found Melissa, was, well, what they found was. One of the major [00:14:00] issues that people were not consistent is because different managers had different ideas. Some liked the creativity of their staff and encouraged it.

Said, don't follow the SOP. Other stores couldn't find the SOP had never seen it. Others had an SOP or a training manual, but it was out of date and none of them had actual training hours set aside to allow new hires to actually study them.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: Yeah.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: There was no time set aside. So it was literally sink or swim trial by fire for these people.

Right. And an ops manager or like the department store managers, just trying to train them on the job. So anyways, I'll come back to the end result later, but I'm just wondering what comes up for you when I share that example. 'cause it looks like there's you.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: It is a good thing. This is just audio, not visual. You know, as soon as you started to tell that story, it reminds me I have two immediate, knows if I [00:15:00] can call it that that when, if I'm working with someone who's new or green, or learning the ropes or whether they're in learning or talent or whether they're in the business, is that there are absolutely two things that do not require e-learning or big training programs, and that is SOPs and policies. All you have to do is read them and the understanding in the application comes through the dialogue between employee and managers, manager and leader, whoever it is. And so that's the first thing that, that jumped to my mind, Lisa, is that there are just some things to your point where, you know, when you start to ask the question, there are immediate red flag.

To say, ask a bunch of questions. So if you don't have pre-established questions and you, you don't have that framework for governance, then start asking the questions of what are you noticing? What seems to be the the problem? What would you [00:16:00] like it to be? What would you like to see happening on the floor?

And you'll very quickly come to you. An awareness with the, the requester that, you know, these are things that happen through communication and on the job training led by peers or led by managers, not through a program where it takes them off the floor for a few days. Or even a e-learning that puts them in the back room for an hour, because I'm not gonna go out and reference that.

And by the way, an SOP is meant to be used on the job. E-learning is off the job.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Yeah, in this case they were talking about more about like how tos, you know, more than anything. It wasn't just just like more policy documents. But, but it is interesting. I think you raise a great point that, that SOPs and policies don't need e-learning. Now I've seen. E-learning structures used to put the policy in so that people can say, so they can certify that they've signed off, but it's just [00:17:00] a short read sign off, discuss with your manager.

But that's the piece that discuss with your manager and talk about application that I think gets missed. So what are your ideas or thoughts from your experience around how do you help? Make sure that, that they're, you know, how do we influence stakeholders? This gets back to the initial question that they actually do help people translate these SOPs and policies and training to the job.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: I would say it's clarity upfront around what the process looks like, whether it's pre-written or not. Communicate with how the process goes. I would say it is having that dialogue and asking curious questions or needs assessment questions that are applicable to help the person, the subject matter experts, really start to think about what it is that they wanna achieve.

And there has to be. You know that, that exploration to make sure we [00:18:00] do, we know what the goal is and do we know what the desired outcome is, and do we have alignment on that? So we, it may be, yeah. Yeah. My, my leader said I need to work with you and get some training on this. Okay. Does the organization align on it?

Is the executive or senior leadership aligned to adding time to training and are they aligned on what the problem is and, and how we're gonna. Solve it. The other piece is even timing, right? If you think about the number of subject matter expertss in an organization, if they all come and say, we need to create some kind of training, whether it's virtual instructor led, instructor led, or e-learning it is up to this team to have the aerial view to say, whoa.

We're bombarding the business and is the senior leadership of the of the organization prepared [00:19:00] for this much training and this much learning, and an example that I can give even. Recently at Liberty is, you know, we've been looking at the e-learning onboarding modules. We've been looking at, you know, the occurrence of our annual compliance training that rolls out.

And it's almost like every month there's something, and especially when it is compliance driven, then there is. Tracking and there's follow up. And so for our leaders, it also takes them away from the business because they're following up with people saying, get this done. Make sure you've attended the, the virtual session, or you've done the e-learning.

You know, and so we're, we're taking valuable time and resources away from the business, whether it is the end user who's doing it, or it's the leader who's following up to make sure you've done it.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Yeah. And this is an ongoing, you know, concern for so many people in [00:20:00] companies. So, so what are some thoughts around how to manage that differently? I.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: I, I think one, it's making sure that the people on your team are equipped with, listen, the our value, our purpose, and our value is to be able to. Diagnose and, and consult and, and create something valuable and and meaningful. It is not our role and our value does not come from taking orders. And just doing what people say, there's a reason why we exist.

There's a reason whether in your organization, you term it a center of excellence or it's, it's the role, it's the team, whatever it is, we're there for a purpose. And so I think it's making sure that the, the people on your team are really clear on what the purpose is and, and how they can have impact on the business, positive or negative.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Yes.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: That they had the confidence in their role and that, you know, [00:21:00] what, if there is going to be pushback or, or some troubleshooting, that they have the support

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Well, if that makes me think of, you know, what you were saying earlier, it's, it's going back to being really clear. Within the team internally, but then with all stakeholders on purpose and alignment. Right? You've gotta have those two things. And I loved the, the language you used when you said, you know, it's up to, to the team.

So we're talking about our talent, HR OD learning team to have the aerial view.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: Yeah.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: that's the power of what we get to do in our discipline. You know, we as multipliers, right? Because, I'm no longer within an organization. I get to work, you know, with some great HR leaders and organizations, and I always, we always talk about, you're, you're sort of in this sticky middle, right?

Everybody wants something from you and everybody's expecting things from you, but then you're, you're sort of, you're not a revenue generator, you know, you're a cost center. There's a constant reminder of that. Yet you've, you're, you're blessed with this broad view from the middle, [00:22:00] right, where you can see across the business and see the ecosystem that exists and how everything is interrelated and connected.

So I think that positions us. To ask really great questions and help people come together and coalesce around what is the purpose. So the question I like to ask, so listeners, write this one down if you like, but it seems to really hit the mark when, you know, sometimes I've had stakeholders or clients who've said, I, I, I'm, I'm not really sure what I want, Lisa, just, but I'll know, I'll know, I'll know it when I see it.

I'll know it when I don't get it, you know, this kind of thing. So I like to say, okay, let's imagine we implement some training, some kind of solution some kind of program based on, you know, the problem you're describing to me and you'd like us to get this done in the next six months. So let's go out six months from now.

So let's say it's August and we're looking through the window, we're looking in at your people and your [00:23:00] operation. Describe what's different. So it's what's different in terms of the behavior that you're observing, the results that people are getting. You know, like what, just describe it, what's happening.

Not just what they're doing, but how they're being. And then we start to get somewhere where we ask that question. There's something very visually powerful about asking them, inviting them to look through that, that future window.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Well, and it, thank you for that because it, it reminds me of some core questions. And whether it, and this can apply to, to asynchronous learning or the virtual or the instructor led or even the leadership summits or the meetings that sometimes the, the HR and the talent teams will be asked to, to plan and to facilitate.

And one of the things I, I love to ask leaders is, okay, well how do you wanna show up? Because they'll always pause, and it's a question we don't usually [00:24:00] ask. They always go to, well, this is what I want done. You know? Okay, so when that's happening, whatever that is, how do you wanna show up? Okay, what do you wanna do? What are the feelings you wanna generate in people? then what's the outcome you wanna generate? Because, and they're very non-traditional questions. However, it, these are four questions I love to ask leaders, whether it's, as I mentioned, a summit or a a training session or whatever it might be, because it's thought, it gets them out of that mindset of, I just, I want x. Well, let's see how x let's pressure test this for a moment here. And so it, it gets them out of that. Just do it and into, okay, well no. How do I want all, how don't I want them to feel? I sure don't want 'em to feel like it was a waste of time. No, I'd rather they felt engaged, inspired, or motivated or, you know, so it, [00:25:00] it helps to. It also, what it helps to do is it gives, whoever is designing this to go back when they are saying, I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna do, wait a minute this. You said this is what, how you wanted to show up. This is what you wanted to do. This is what you wanted people to feel, and this is the outcome. So this delivers on that

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Yeah.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: and they can see it.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Yes. So when you can clearly, you know, have that clear articulation and then be coming back to it, that brings in the iteration piece, the iterative, you know, coming back. Okay, so now here's the preliminary sort of design. Now how's this fitting? Well, no, I, you know, they might get off track. We might get off track.

So let's go back to the original. So are we still aligned or does that need to shift? And then it's just this ongoing loop. The thing that you made me think of there was really, you know, core principle of change management. Or, you know, or any kind of implementation around, around learning and growth. And it's all transformation in the end, but a [00:26:00] model that I've always loved to use with people. So the how do you show up is very much a coaching question, and you being a coach as well, like, we know that that's a really important one to help people tap into, how do I wanna be, not just what, what do I wanna do?

Another model is also the no feel, believe, do so is walking people through. So. All right, so what do you, what do you want people to know? And then what you're saying, what do you want 'em to feel? But going beyond that, what do you want 'em to believe? And then as a result of all that, what do you want them to do?

How do you want them to act on these things?

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: Yeah,

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: So it gets at the motivation and how we tap into that.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: and, and I, I recognize that maybe some of these questions, as I said, they're non-traditional and, and some leaders might be like, feel, what do I care about? Feelings. I just want this out there. And I think what's important to note is use the language that will resonate in your organization. So, you know, maybe it's not, what feelings do you wanna generate?

Maybe it is, you know, what first [00:27:00] reactions would you like people to have, right? And, and so. Ask the questions with the intent, but change the language into the way that will be most openly received by the business ses or the business leaders in your organization.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: It's funny that you bring that up because feelings are very uncomfortable in the corporate world in many corners of the corporate world. But I find with the no, with the no feel, believe, do, model, like the way I typically couch it is feel is like, do you want people to feel. Attacked. Like they have no choice.

Like they, you know, like you're doing something mean and making their lives miserable. No, I don't want them to feel that way. Then it sort of gets them out of, oh, this is something fluffy and more into No, no, no. I want them to, to, to feel that this is the right thing to do. That it makes sense that they're being treated with respect.

Okay, now we're cooking with gas. Now your point though, to use language that resonates in your, in your organization is critical. And that's an example of that. But the [00:28:00] idea of using React versus feel could be really uh, propo because, you know, I see, I had a conversation with somebody recently and they were really kind of railing against the fact that their language, the, the language of talent and learning and coaching wasn't resonating internally in the organization.

Right. They weren't, they were thinking about themselves and using their own lingo and jargon. And this has come up on the show before and it is important to, to lean into what do your stakeholders need in order to understand

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Well, and to not take it as a personal affront. Right. And, and I'll use a, a personal example of, of late you know, doing some work with our executive team around, goal setting, alignment, rating, all of those pieces and, and essentially what it comes down to is we need to shift mindsets and, okay, well, how do you form [00:29:00] a mindset?

Well, beliefs, values, and experience. And so when I started to outline things, I was using those words and they did not resonate whatsoever. Right. And it was like they, the, the feedback was, well, we agree with the intent and the, and the bullets, so to speak, but we don't like the, the labels and the terminology of we believe we value that kind of stuff.

I said, okay, well then I'll change it. It doesn't change the intent or the purpose or the meaning of things, but no problem. Doesn't resonate with you as a stakeholder. No problem. I'll change that.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Well, and it makes me think, I mean, what a great way to go into conversations too and say, I may use language that. Doesn't connect, and I'm looking for you to be a, a mirror reflection of what's appropriate in the organization and, and how do we make it so that it's gonna land. 'cause that is part of [00:30:00] how we get buy-in at all levels, you know, whether it's top, top line or, or frontline.

I wanted to go back to, you know, talking about, I, I, I talked about that grocery example and how, you know, the face value. Request the, the prescription that was provided was fix. These people make it all consistent. Right. And we're busy. And we don't have time for this. Well, I just, I wanted to circle back just to explain what actually happened and, and to demonstrate the power of asking great questions.

Like what will be different if we're able to solve for this and, and in terms of whatever the solution is, what, what can you not have? I think that was one of the questions, what is not gonna work? And so it was stuff like sitting in the back room for hours doing e-learnings. Okay. But that was the original request was doing e-learning.

But then when they actually were asked to think about it, they didn't want people being off the floor for for very long.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: Yeah.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: in the end, [00:31:00] what's really interesting is, and it's still initial stages, but so my client went back to this stakeholder after they'd sort of pulled together this, this needs assessment and so on and and said, here's what we've heard.

Here's findings. And presented very neutrally. Originally, there was a bit of judgment in some of the slides, right, based on the original draft from somebody on the team. And she recognizes, oops, I gotta take that out. Like, right. This is all presented neutrally that we're, notice we're finding out that people aren't getting trained, that there aren't training hours, that we have inconsistent materials on the floor and so on.

So then they said, here's what. What we feel we're able to do right away to assist. And here's some bigger questions that need to be discussed amongst the senior ops team here, and this is who they were presenting to. And one of them was, we can build all the training in the world. But if people have no time to look at it, do it, and their managers aren't going to be on the bus with [00:32:00] helping them do that, then it doesn't make sense.

So let's talk about what, what are some other things that, that need to be decided anyways? End of story. Okay. 'cause it goes on for a while. They, the, the, the win is operations told them. This is a couple months later. We've got 700,000 approved in the budget for the upcoming year for in-store training hours.

So where there it, it would be comfortable to engage managers and staff in this training where there would be still somebody I. On the right working with customers, but I mean, what a huge win. So it really underscored just like, okay, they didn't generate any revenue that we, we just created some spending, but we created spending by shining a light on something that people didn't really have a view to previously.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Good for you and that manager for you know, bringing a different perspective

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Well, it

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: [00:33:00] opened up new

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: view, right? They were able to get that aerial view by digging in and really looking across the, or the operation just in this one division and, and uncover all this stuff. So it really, really is a powerful example of what's possible. So let's, let's go back in the interest of time.

I wanna kind of see if we can pull this together. So. Based on our conversation and your years of experience, what would you say are the three must haves to ensuring that that stakeholders will get on board?

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: the first thing for me is relationships. So when you have a strong, credible relationship where they know you beyond your title and your role, and you know, your, your. Checking in on their kids and, and all that. It changes the dynamic of a conversation, and I think that is essential no matter what size the organization is.

The, the, the [00:34:00] operator or the HR business partners or whoever it is, that's that frontline stakeholder for deployment and execution. Having relationships with them is critical. Because then you can have the, the straightforward, candid conversations and acknowledge the elephants in the room if you need to, or you know, to say, yeah, I hear you and.

Here's what we've gotta do. So how can we do it? Which leads me to the second piece flexibility. So when you get to the stage, when you're past, you know, senior leader approval and, and things like that and design, and you're going to get that. Operational HR buy-in for deployment. Then you have to be flexible in the way that you approach it, because going back to your question of what do you not want to have happen, well, you don't want people feeling that it's being crammed down their throats.

You don't want people complaining. You don't want people saying they don't know how the [00:35:00] business runs. 'cause this is the worst time ever to be doing this. Right. So that flexibility and that willingness to, to say. Here's the goal. When does it work and when does it not work for you? Because the last thing, and having been in that seat, the last thing anyone wants is to be told Thou shall do this and this is when you shall do it and this is how you should do it.

And you know, nobody responds really well to that. So what I have found is whether it's rolling out. Talent days. That requires, you know, the leadership within a district or a region, or whether it's rolling out a training curriculum to the field and, and the front lines that it's around, listen, here's what we've got.

We believe that it will be beneficial to you and we will do this when it makes sense for you. So what, what, what's the blackout? [00:36:00] Timing and when are the other ones that you think you would be able to support and rally people and, and have the participation that would be suitable for your part of the business.

And so it's less about cramming things down people's throat and saying, thou shall, and saying, you know, do you think this is a good idea? Yes. Because 99% of the time they think it's a great idea. It's just that that timing doesn't work.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: It's the implementation, the execution, they need to be involved. Like the words coming up as you're talking here, it's, it's around flexibility. It's the collaboration, like taking a collaborative approach, iterative approach. Like let's really figure out the flexibility within the framework. There's a, you know, we're agreeing, we, you want this to happen, this right, this result, and so let's be flexible how we get there and we wanna support you with that.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: Yeah. And, and the third piece, Lisa, is I don't have a short way to say this, but set your partners up for success.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: [00:37:00] Mm.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: You know, how do you, arm them with the, the knowledge and the insight and the terminology that they look like rock stars and, you know, it's like, oh, thank you Mr. HR Director, or Thank you Mrs.

Regional Operations director for bringing this to us. That's amazing. Not, oh, we brought it from the corporate office. Set up your, your, your frontline, your regional, your operational leaders to be kings and queens, that people go, oh, thank you for thinking of us.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Oh, that is so refreshing. That's kind of like a mic drop right there, Melissa. Yeah, it's, I, I love it. No, it's such an important point, right? Like, let's make sure, because, because often, you know, when I work with organizations where they have the C-O-E-H-R-B-P model, I. You know, the COEs will say, Ugh, I handed off to the HR VPs to go and implement in their division, or, you know, the, the company or whatever.

And they're like, oh, corporate's making us do this, or this is, you know, if people [00:38:00] complain. So we want them to be on board to, to not defend it, but to say, you know, no, we were all involved in, in this and it's fine to, have some, take some issue with it. But let's look at it with a, with a, we're gonna solve this lens and we're gonna be flexible about it to make it work versus, you know, passing the buck.

And likewise, HRPS will sometimes they're like, oh my God, like we weren't consulted enough, or they didn't ask how this might work. And they didn't, you know, we weren't even consulted about timing or format or, you know, this kind of thing. So your point is well taken. 

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: coming up to setting, you know, those partners up for success is wherever possible, pilot it. Invite those people to the pilot. So they go out and they're the ambassadors to say, oh my gosh, I did this training, or I attended this meeting, or I, I looked at the content and it is so spot on and I think everyone needs this right.

I think wherever you can [00:39:00] involve them in some type of piloting or iteration upfront, it really does help them to become ambassadors. And then, as I mentioned before, it also set them up for success to say, you're gonna love this and, and you're gonna, you're gonna thank me for bringing it to you as the HR person or the operations

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: Yeah, because we often think about, well, how do I create advocates, create allies, or, you know, make these people into advocates? And yet it it, it's not about what you wanna make. Them into, it's about how, how do you set them up for success, think about their needs, and then they will naturally become those allies and advocates, is what I'm hearing from you.

So beautiful. Thank you so much. I think we've covered a lot of ground and we're, we're out of time, but I really enjoyed this conversation. I think this some really important takeaways in here around building buy-in, you know, continuing that conversation throughout the organization, so thank you.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate2: It was a great conversation. Thanks for having me again, Lisa.

Meliissa Law 5 GMT20240206-145216_Recording_separate1: My absolute pleasure. [00:40:00]