The High-Risk High-Reward Workplace with Susan Ways

“There’s something really magical about the building of something .”

- Susan Ways

Have you ever been drawn to a high-risk opportunity because you loved the idea of getting to pioneer something completely new?  I know I have - and so has today’s guest!  Together we discuss her experience of working for several start-ups, some of which didn’t end up surviving long-term.  We also dig into ways to build a culture of transparency.

My guest is Susan Ways.  Susan is the Head of HR, Administration and Compliance at Nobel Pharma where she focuses on continuous improvement and organizational excellence. She is also a blogger, author, podcaster and speaker focused on teaching people to embrace their authentic self and understanding how to weave that into their life to show up as their best self. 

After experiencing the death of her husband, Susan became interested in the concept of resilience and hope as necessary components for all aspects of life. She is compelled by the belief that when we are self-aware, we can extract the lessons from our life experiences and use them to guide ourselves and inspire others. 

Susan holds a bachelor of science in psychology and a Masters of Arts in Organizational Communications both from Bowie State University.  She is also a Certified Life/Executive Coach with expertise in utilizing a holistic coaching method that shows people how to lead more fulfilled lives both in all facets of their lives. Along with her full-time HR position, Susan hosts a podcast - Tendrils of Grief to help others navigate the confusing journey of grief. 

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

• The benefits of taking higher-risk, high-reward jobs with start-ups where there is no guarantee the company will ultimately be viable 
• Ideas for building a culture of transparency
• An example of how to leverage a flexible Paid Time Off policy for engagement

Links

• Susan Ways on Linkedin: https://Linkedin.com/in/susanways
• Instagram - @sueways
• Twitter @inspiredsusan
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tendrilsofgrief/ 

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Transcript

LM Ep 112

 [00:00:00] 

Have you ever been drawn to a high risk opportunity because you loved the idea of getting to pioneer something completely new? I know I have, and so has today's guest. Together, we discuss her [00:01:00] experience of working for several startups, some of which didn't end up surviving long term. We also dig into ways to build a culture of transparency.

My guest is Susan Wa. Susan is the head of HR administration and compliance at Nobel Pharma where she focuses on continuous improvement and organizational excellence. She's also a blogger, author, podcaster, and speaker. Susan holds a master's in organizational communications and is also a certified life coach and host of the podcast, tendrils of Grief, which she started after losing her husband.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you'll discover the benefits of taking higher risk, high reward jobs with startups where there's no guarantee the company will ultimately be viable ideas for building a culture of transparency and an example of how to leverage a flexible paid time off policy for engagement.

Thanks for listening. Enjoy. [00:02:00] 

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truce. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I'm joined by Susan Waze. Susan is the head of Human Resources Administration and Compliance at Nobel Pharma. Thanks for joining me today, Susan.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to have this discussion with you.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Likewise. Well, let's kick off and, and have you share a little bit about your career journey to date and your role at Nobel Pharma.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Sure. I have had a very eclectic journey in my career and I've taken several high risks. High reward types of jobs, and oftentimes those don't work out. But it's really given me great experience working with different companies, understanding startups, the startup mentality, how to build workforces. I really specialize in pharma, biotech, commercial startup companies.

So that's really where I've been, where I am now, and I, I [00:03:00] enjoy it.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Excellent. And so tell us about what you do at Nobel Pharma.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: I have a really wonderful role. I am the head of Human Resources Administration and Compliance, so I oversee our compliance program. I'm not a compliance expert, but I've learned a lot about it on the way I. I engage a lot of compliance experts for that specific knowledge base. I have a strong background in human resources, so I'm overseeing all of the human resources components and then the administration, which I have done in my career.

It's kind of an easy transition for an HR professional to move into administration and really the setup of the office, the management of it, all of those different facets. In a small organization, you can span a lot of territory.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Yes, absolutely. And what does Nobel Pharma do? What? What is their mission?

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: We are a rare disease company. We focus on rare disease. So right now [00:04:00] we have our flagship ship product, which focuses on facial angio fibroma, which is a rare condition from tubular sclerosis complex.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Got it. All right. Thank you. So, and you're out of the United States, right? 

I believe out out of Maryland. Okay. So, you know, you, you wear a lot of hats, right? It's right in your title. 

It's a, it's a mouth of a title. Right. 

And as a small team, it's a small organization. I think you said about 34 people or 

So, so so what, what's the, what's the benefit of having a small team?

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: I really like working in small organizations because you can wear a lot of hats and sometimes they don't have a need for a full-time employee. Like we don't necessarily have a need for a full-time compliance employee. I. So I raised my hand and I said, let me learn as much as I can about this and pull all of this together.

This is not an opportunity I would get in a big organization because they do have the need for a full-time person and are gonna hire somebody [00:05:00] with the street creds and background to fill that position. But I've really been able to embrace it and learn more and grow. Also, because we're so small, we communicate a lot and I'm.

In complete understanding of the cross-functional areas within the organization, which makes me a better HR practitioner, makes me a better employee, and it makes me really more invested in the organization overall.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: I agree. And that comes out in how you describe it even, right? How you speak to it. And that comes up a lot in my conversations working with, with HR and talent folks, is, is just how critical it is to be able to speak the language of the business and not. See yourself. Just, I'm, I'm hr, I'm just over here.

You know, I'm separate. It's really how are you integrated and, and understanding all all facets. You don't have to be an expert in every single discipline of course, but understanding how they interconnect and being able to, to kind of take in those perspectives and have it guide what, what you produce, how you support them.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: [00:06:00] Yes, yes, absolutely it, it's important because it makes you a better recruiter because you understand holistically who you're looking for the resume. As people, what you can do in the job. We look at that and we see your background. We see your skillset, but I need to know who you are while you're doing that job and in a small organization, because I know all of the players.

I can tell when I interview somebody, this is a good fit for that department or maybe not so much.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Right. Well, and I appreciate what you're saying around, you know, I think I, I, I meet a lot of people in the course of my work, either, either clients or podcast guests, and, you know, people that come to my talent talks that, you know, many of them are in very small organizations, might be a one person show.

Even you've got a team of four you know. I, I think that remembering what's good about it is really, really key, right? And you kind of light up when you're like, multiple hats. I get to learn, I get to do all these things and put my hand up and you know, I think back to my own experience, way back when I first sort of came into corporate out of teaching and, [00:07:00] and oh my God, like I, this was at was CIBC finance turned into edgy links.

I got to do a whole bunch of different things, you know, sometimes at the same time, but in rapid succession. And it was just like this. Smorgasbord of learning, I couldn't get enough. Right. And it, it was, it was really interesting because you didn't have to be an expert before you were hired into the next role.

Now 

this was a large organization, but then it was sort of startup environment. So it had that flavor right of of, of will being willing to take a chance on people.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Now something else that you mentioned that I, that I just wanna touch on because I think it's interesting 'cause you said, you know, when you were describing your, your career path that you've taken some kind of high risk opportunities and I'm just wondering, you know, I assume that's because they were more startup and you know, early stage.

What draws you to those types of opportunities?

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: There's something really magical about the building of something, and when I interview people, I will use [00:08:00] the analogy, there are pioneers and there are settlers, and we're an organization of pioneers. You're gonna come in and you're gonna build the infrastructure. You're gonna put everything together, and then the settlers come in after you and they live in what you built.

And I love to be the architect of things. Everything in this organization that's hr, that's compliance, that's office related, has my fingerprints all over it. And there's just a lot of pride in that because I know it's mine and I can see the fruits of my labor, and it's not just me coming into an already established process and just tweaking it and making changes here and there.

It's really building it from the ground up.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Yeah. That's so interesting. The pioneers and settlers. I haven't heard that kind of construct before, but I, but it is very descriptive and, and I, because I've always called myself a builder 

and it is that pioneering spirit of just, just 

like, okay, let's roll up our sleeves and dig in and, and, and then that, that sense of, [00:09:00] oh my God, I built that and it's still in use, you know, five years later 

and I've.

On that kind of thing. Yeah. Very interesting. Okay. Well, so, so let's move into sort of present day and, and what you, what you've been doing and working on at Noble Pharma. And you had shared with me when we first met that something you're quite proud of is, is transparency and hiring. Could you kind of expand on what, what that's all about?

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Sure we have implemented a tool that is an assessment that. New hires or candidates will take. And with this tool, it gives us just really a framework of. Basically who you are when you're doing your job, and it allows us to guide our interview questions. And so we look at that. All of our managers are trained on that tool.

We talk about it. And for instance, it may say, I always use myself as an example. I'm an extrovert. I need to be out and talking to people. And if it says on the. On this assessment tool that I'm [00:10:00] very introverted and I don't want to talk to people, then that's probably not the good role for our HR department.

In a small organization, you're talking to everybody. You're fielding A to Z phone calls. Conversely, I don't like to sit behind a computer and crunch numbers all day. So if that was the job, I'm not a good for an accounting position and I would be miserable and the person hiring me would be miserable.

So it's not a tool that screens people out. It's a tool to say, Hey, this is the, these are the nuts and bolts of the job. It looks like you prefer this kind of environment. Tell me how you would adapt or how you would feel in a job where you're behind a computer all day. I. I would probably self-select out because I know that that would be a setup for failure for me.

Then from there, we have many people in our organization interview. Now, it can take a little bit of time. We do a lot of Zoom interviews. We actually use teams, so we do a lot of teams interviews and sometimes we have people come in if they're local, but we really [00:11:00] try to shorten the length of it as much as possible while giving people exposure to as many.

People in the organization as they can. And the reason that we wanna do this is because not only do we wanna make sure it's a good fit for us, we want the candidates to make sure it's a good fit for them. And then we always meet at the end and, and we talk and we, I. Just sit around and talk about our concerns, talk about the strengths, and then we come to a consensus on the candidate that we feel is gonna be best suited for the position.

So we put a lot of heart, a lot of thought, a lot of time into our candidates, and then we want them to put that same heart thought and time into selecting us 'cause we're different. A small startup organization is very different from a big, well established organization, and so we try to be as transparent as possible through that as well.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: So, okay, so I'd like to break down some of what you've shared because it, it, it resonates with me because I. I've led talent acquisition in several organizations, so I'm very passionate about this [00:12:00] area. Have, have, have trained and certified hundreds of managers. So this idea of. It's not just about the company doing the interviewing, holding all the power.

This is, and especially in the market we've had up until kind of around now, things are shifting a bit in October, 2023. You know, it's about, it's gotta work for everybody. I. 

Right. So we do need to provide opportunities for candidates to assess fit. It's like a chemistry call with coaches, you know, like you meet a couple coaches before you decide the one you wanna work with, 

sort of me up.

But you even said, you know, tell me, so this, this job requires x, you know, this assessment that you did that talks about how you show up at work, right? And what your preferences are says. Sort of the opposite and how it, it's like you're not immediately dismissing those people as potential fits.

It's giving them the opportunity to talk about how they might adapt. And 

that's interesting cause it's really tricky and there's been a little, little bit more controversy [00:13:00] coming up around using assessments in hiring from some stuff that I've been reading, I've, I've done it in the past using disc.

I don't know what you use. But I've only ever used it as about 10% of the decision. This is, this is just when you get to the shortlist point where you're really stuck between two awesome candidates, and it might be the piece that helps you right along with those questions, dig into it to make that decision and get them to help you make the decision as well.

Yeah. So I think, you know, you said they might self-select out if they see, oh yeah, it's not right for me. But at the same time, it gives them an opportunity to say, I'm actually that unicorn. I'm that salesperson that on paper, on these assessments doesn't look like your typical salesperson. 'cause I've met people like that who are extraordinary in their job.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Yes, so we don't use it as a decision tool at all. We use it to drive our interview questions, and from there we make our decisions. So it does impact the decisions, but we don't, if somebody comes in and they're not a fit, because we use predictive index [00:14:00] and it has several different components that it measures you on, but it will score you as how you rated.

That how you rate it against the job. And it's interesting 'cause it's literally a tool that takes you less than five minutes to complete. And people think that it's silly when they're taking the assessment, but then when we present them with their profile, I've had somebody say, oh my God, get out of my head. So it's, it's so incredibly accurate in many ways, but it drives the conversation. It doesn't drive the decision.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Beautiful. Love that. The other thing, you know, that you were mentioning was just how many people are involved in interviews and in, and in a small organization. I would think that that would be paramount, right? Because you, you, you are. In communication with, with everybody more often, right?

Like you, because of the nature of, of like, because of the size. So when you talk about a typical hiring process, like what is the [00:15:00] length of time to get people through all of those, those meetings, how do you manage that?

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: It can be about two weeks, and it depends on availability of the candidate, and it depends on availability of the people being interviewed. But the good news with. Zoom or Teams video interviewing is that even if our teams are traveling, they can carve out an hour from a conference or from somewhere where they are to do an interview, and that shortens the time.

So typically from the time the recruiter reaches out to them and the time that a decision is made, it's generally around two weeks.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Okay, so that's helpful insight for, for listeners because in some organizations, bigger ones, they're not quite as nimble, right? 

This stuff can drag on for, for months in some cases particularly in the, in you. Know hiring of, of higher level folks, so, okay. The other question that came up when you were talking about that is how, how do you prepare if there's [00:16:00] multiple people involved in the interviewing?

Do you provide questions for them or is it kind, you know, free for all or guidelines given, like what, what do you do there?

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Whenever we set a manager up with a candidate, we provide them with their predictive index. Overall, it's called a behavioral assessment, so we provide them with that. From there, there are questions that the system generates that can be customized, but they're just general overarching questions and it's really around, it pulls those areas where they're a fit.

'cause it has a column that's a fit column that's a not fit. So there's questions for each one that you ask around that. And again, it's not, hey, that you're not a fit for this job, it's. This came up well, for instance, one of the things that comes up on the assessment all the time are tools roles and, and policies and guidelines.

And we have people who are very role oriented and it's kind of chaotic in a startup because sometimes there is no role and you're the one that has to create the role or [00:17:00] create the policy or create the procedure. Because I use the analogy we're building the house while we live in it, and we don't know what we don't know until we find out we don't know it.

And so sometimes that's up to people. So that, that's the question I have for the role followers, the policy and procedure people, and typically people love that, even if they are role followers, they like to be the person that starts that up. So they get that and there's questions that come up around that, and then they get the resume so they can see the background, but really they're just asking questions.

Then based on the specifics of the job, the recruiter, the first point of contact are the overall. Arching questions and then it gets into a little bit more detail oriented questions, and everybody in our company meets with the CEO. We do not hire any employee without the CEO being involved.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: That's. Quite the commitment from that

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Yes, very much so.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. Okay. Alright, so, so [00:18:00] hiring huge, hugely. It's sort of, you know, high level of involvement across the organization for anybody net new that comes in. 'cause in a small organization of 34, 35 people, one new person. Can change the dynamic.

So, so I think it 

makes sense that you are that careful and clear about the process now. You called it hiring transparency. What's the transparent piece here for you?

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: For me, it's really around open communication about what this job really is. I'm not trying to sell you some. Magic Elixir. I don't want you to come in because we're desperate for people. I want you to come in because this is the right fit for you. We have the great Place to work designation, and it took a lot of effort for us to get that and it's important for us to maintain that.

And as you said, one person can come in and really shift that whole dynamic and and ruin a lot in a small organization. In a large organization. There's many people to dilute [00:19:00] toxic energy. In a small organization, not so much. So the stakes are high for us, and it's really around, I'm gonna tell you everything that you need to know, good, bad, or ugly.

I mean, Lisa, I can tell you, I have unpacked Amazon boxes and put supplies on shelves before when we've had shipments come in. We have our other executives, when we have a potluck, they're wiping down tables and taking trash out. I mean, we are really that kind of an organization, but I want people to know that because I don't want you to come in and be shocked.

And say, oh my gosh, I can't believe they asked me to wipe a table down. And can you, we never ask people, they just jump in and

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Yeah. 

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: but, you know, just for the, the sake of the conversation. So that's where it's very important to me that, and we train all of our managers on how to interview, how to use predictive index, and that's where that whole transparency comes in.

And then it continues throughout their career or throughout their time at our organization [00:20:00] because you will have a, at least a monthly one-on-one. With your manager, you will have at least a monthly one-on-one with the CEO for 30 minutes. He meets with every single employee for 30 minutes. And we, again, train around how to structure these conversations, how to make them a two-way free flowing conversation.

It's an employee's opportunity to get their position promoted or highlight what they're working on, and it's a manager's opportunity to hear what the employee's thinking and hopefully understand if they're unhappy, where their pain points are. Then we do employee engagement interviews and they call them stay interviews, and I'm trained in, in that. That function. But anyway, they, those really help us know prior to an exit interview where the employees are struggling, what they need from the organization. And it's not just pay and benefits. That's what everybody thinks. We all want more pay, we all want better benefits. There's also a whole lot of other things that [00:21:00] impact an employee's.

Employees perception of the organization, how successful, how engaged they are, and we're just, there's multiple touch points for us to connect with that.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. Stay. Interviews are, are extremely important and underutilized in general across industries, I would say. But it does give you a sense to really connect with people. Before they're thinking about picking up that call from the recruiter, you know what I 

mean? To really understand what's working for you, what's not, what are you, what are your hopes you know, what might be getting in your way so that, you know, you can address some of these things proactively.

So it's, it's a very proactive stance versus just exit 

interviews, some of which are, 

those are often in place, so they're utilized, but the data is not necessarily, which, which is a, is a missed opportunity, I

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Yes, and you can't fix it. And we are not in the business of doing counter offers for people. So if you leave, we might be really sad, but we just wish you well on your next career opportunity and we wanna learn [00:22:00] what we can from you. But we're not going to try to throw a Hail Mary pass to you at the end of.

This and, and get you back in the organization. That's not what we wanna do. Again, we want people who are here for the right reasons and they wanna be here. There's so many opportunities for people to raise their concerns to us that if they choose not to utilize those, they're probably not the right fit in the long run anyway.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: That's a great point. 'cause you know, in my experience I would say that most of the time where there was a counter offer, an effort to keep somebody who had one foot out the door, it didn't work out in the long run. 

You know, because there's a lot of reasons. Usually it's a multitude of stuff that people are thinking about when they go to entertain a net new.

Job opportunity. So those things just don't all magically disappear because there's a, an offer of increased pay at the current place.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Right. And why my question to people is always, why did you wait until I left to offer this? If you felt like I was worth this promotion or this pay increase, [00:23:00] why didn't you offer that to me proactively? Why did I have to leave? And that doesn't sit well with me from the employee side because I'm also an employee, not only a in hr.

But I don't want that on on me. So if you like me, if you see that magic in me, then let's be talking about that.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Yes. I think that's really interesting. So counter offers for listeners. Hmm. Maybe double, double check your thinking around those. 

Some people may have had success with those, but I have not seen that. Generally speaking,

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: I think it's few and far between, and I think that the only time I've seen them be successful is when there are problems that the organization hasn't been willing to address and they really double down and start to address them. But when it's just pay and title it, you might get more money, but you're not gonna like your boss any better, no matter how much money that you're like that you're making.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: I agree. That's exactly it. Okay. All right. Well, let's, let's switch gears a little bit. So it's, it's, it's somewhat connected though, so there's transparency of in hiring and also [00:24:00] in how you kind of listen to your employees, is what I'm hearing ongoing. You had mentioned to me that you offer flexible paid time off.

yeah. 

Could you tell us a little bit about, you know, what that looks like?

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Sure. Well, we are a hybrid work environment. We also have many remote employees who work solely from home, and that's designated prior to our hiring. In our job advertisements, we will let people know if it's remote or if it's hybrid. So for hybrid employees, you're only in the office. Two days a week, we have a generous PTO package.

It's 20 days that you use for whatever you wanna use them for. However, our philosophy is, we're all salary in our organization. If you work at all that day. You don't have to take PTO. So if you are, if you have a doctor's appointment and you need to take half the day off to get to your doctor's appointment, you're not using your PTO for that.

And the reason is, is because some days you might [00:25:00] work 50 hours that week, and we feel like it's just that reciprocal relationship where we're all grown adults and we're gonna show up as grown adults and we're gonna treat you like grown adults. So your PTO is really for the days that you're disconnected from your computer and from your phone.

We also have a company philosophy that we do not like it when people send emails on weekends or late at night If you have to, you have to. Obviously there's business critical items, but that is not our business practice and we do not want. People working all hours of the night, and we don't want people working when they're on PTO.

Your PTO is designated for you to disconnect and get away from work, not to stay attached to your phone while you're at the amusement park with your family. And we really encourage and drive that kind of a culture.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: How do you, how do you find people have responded to that?

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: People are confused by it. Honestly. We still have people in our human resource system putting [00:26:00] in two hours of PTO or four hours of PTO, and we repeatedly have to go back and say, we don't do that. It's all or nothing. So you either take the whole day off or you take nothing off at all, and it's. It's taken some time for people to get their head wrapped around that, but they like it because it just makes your life so much easier to not have to micromanage your time.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. And you know the other. Thing that, that I'm kind of wondering is do you find people respect that policy of not sending late day emails and weekend emails.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Absolutely. We actually had somebody in the organization, the CEO was on the management team. The CEO reached out and said, don't do that, because then your direct reports will think they have to do that. So when you get that message from the CEO and you will not get an email from the CEO. Late at night or on weekends.

Again, unless it's something that's business critical, and I check my email a couple of times on the weekends [00:27:00] just in case, but I typically do not check it after seven o'clock at night and then till I log in the next day. Because also now people will call you if it's an emergency, somebody will call you on your cell phone, so I don't feel like I have to be attached to my phone or my computer.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Yeah, I think this is a huge opportunity for so many companies to, to, to, you know, email is a heavy chain around our necks. 

And so, remembering the old fashioned phone call is there if there's an absolute emergency and contracting with people that this is how we shall connect if absolutely necessary.

But let's, let's resist that urge to be constantly on email. 

I've worked. Spaces where it was an expectation. Like even before you brushed your teeth, you're checking your email really to see what came up while you were sleeping, and, and I don't think that that type of urgency is usually necessary.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Yeah, it's, it's, and I have friends that their email, their phone is turned on all night in case, and they get that pinging and they're up in the middle of the night. It's just not healthy. [00:28:00] We need a disconnect from work, and that's why we have PTO, that's we need to sleep. That's why we can turn off our phones.

And I, I think it's unfortunate when organizations really burn their employees out by expecting them to be a hundred percent of the time connected to work.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: I think if you talk to those organizations, they wouldn't say that that's their expectation. What's interesting though is the behaviors that are 

demonstrated by senior leaders. If, you know, like to your point earlier, if, if it's, you know, the CEO or you know, one of the, the senior leadership team is, is doing these things, sending emails late or, you know, looking for an answer at six in the morning, like, Hey, what were you doing?

Are you sleeping? Or something like, I need 

an answer. that does. Very much influence the behaviors of the people in receipt of those. so it's those, those actions, right? The intention. We 

might think the intention is not there, you know, just to set this expectation, but the expectations being set purely through action.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: And in some [00:29:00] organizations it's a badge of honor and it gets talked about like, oh my gosh, Lisa sent an email at three in the morning. She works all the time. Lisa just is constantly working. Well, guess what? You can set your email to send at three in the morning if that's the illusion that you wanna create.

So there's other ways that if you're trying to. Have your name and lights in the organization, and that's what they're valuing. There's ways to get around that too.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. The badge of honor thing, I used to call it the busy badge and 

I wore it. Let me tell you, I'm, I wore it for years in corporate, you know, it sort 

of felt like, yeah, you know, how are you? People would ask each other right in the hallways, busy. 

That's the answer. And yet, is that really how you wanna be remembered?

Is the person that was just always busy. What are we so busy about? So I think it takes some real intention on the part of organizations like yours around what's, how are we going to set up the culture and the expectations so that people know that we, we respect that they have other things in [00:30:00] their life besides work.

And then it's also up to, to individuals, I think, to figure out what are the boundaries or parameters they need to put around. How, how often they are willing to, to, and, you know. To check their emails and are they working to create new habits if they're in the, in the habit of checking too much, right?

Because 

I do work with a lot of individual coaching clients where this comes up more frequently than you would realize, right? People that sleep with the phone beside their bed 

have it charging there. Okay? How about you move it into the bathroom? So it's charging, you know, it's not right beside you, pinging as you sleep, this kind of thing, you know, working through different, different solutions to kind of distance it.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Right. Absolutely. I think that that's great advice, and I think sometimes people just need to set their own standard, and again, that becomes part of your hiring transparency, and I. When you're interviewing, going back to this, you're interviewing the company just as much. I tell people all the time, my friends will call me and, and I say, tell them you're a [00:31:00] single parent.

Tell them that you have a part-time job. And they'll say, oh, but they won't hire me. Okay. But you don't wanna work for them if they don't like that, and that's who you are. You need to be transparent about who you are, so that way you're not selling them something that they're not aware of, and you're also not entering yourself into a situation that is not gonna work with whoever it is you are and what's going on personally in your life.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Well, it's the kind of this idea of you know, I think sometimes people interviewing for jobs will I'm, I'm working with a, with a young woman right now actually, who's trying to, it's more a graduate university program, but she was sort of in this rutt of, of trying to be something she's not.

She was trying, she was sort of trying to be what she thought they wanted 

and was getting this feedback that it wasn't landing as authentic.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: right.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: 'cause it wasn't so, you know, this, this advice that you've been giving. I, I think it's so critical, right? Like, let's contract early on around. Just be, be [00:32:00] clear, be transparent around what you're able to do, not able to do, want to do, don't want to do, you know, both sides of the table.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Absolutely. I think it's super important 'cause you're advocating for yourself too, and you're trying to find that job that's gonna work for you in your life and this is where you hopefully are gonna be and stay. And you can only do that by showing up as authentically you and being transparent.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: I think, I mean there, there are. Other things at play often, right? There's a scarcity mindset can creep in, right? I know in some cases as a, as an entrepreneur, so, work might sort of come in, you know, be offered as a possibility. And if my spidey senses, you know, are sort of telling me, I'm not sure this is the kind of work that I wanna take, it can still be very hard to say.

No. 

Because it's revenue. And I think for employees and organizations or, or looking for a job, sometimes it's like, I just need the job. Right? 

Like I just, so they're more willing to overlook some of these, intuitive [00:33:00] pieces, which is, which is tough. Yeah. Yeah. There's fear that interests.

Okay. Well, so let's, let's, go on to talk a little bit about leadership and, you know, you've recently put in a leadership development program, which I know you're 

really proud of. And could you tell us a little bit about how you constructed it to support this, this culture of transparency?

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: Absolutely. There's a leadership coach who I've worked with in many organizations and she is phenomenal, and I went to her with this idea after I had it approved by the management team. And talk to her about what we were looking for. And in a small organization, we don't have a lot of money. We can't always throw money at people to get them to stay.

And there's only so many positions to be promoted into before we become a bank and everyone's a vice president. what we decided to do was to create this leadership development program, and it's a six months, six month program that offers a very d. [00:34:00] Approach. It's some individual coaching. One-on-one coaching sessions.

There are group coaching sessions, there's projects, and then we have a graduation program. So we put six people through what we are now calling leadership development program, LDP one, and they graduated and we had a ceremony for them. We actually had the as a gift, we had the coach. Offer them a book that based on their coaching, that they, the coach, thought that they would benefit from reading.

And it was a either a business book or self-help book, something like that. And it was such a success and everybody just really loved it. And we had people at all different levels in the organization that went through, well, let me just say it was up to manager level. And people who we were, we identified as being high potentials and they also had to ask to be a part of the program.

We didn't assign anyone to be in this program because if you don't wanna be in it, it's a monetary investment. We built a [00:35:00] retention clause, so anybody who took the program has to stay with the organization for 12 months or pay back the. Equivalent of the program. 'cause we don't want people learning these wonderful skills and then taking them to another organization.

But it was so successful that in 2024 we decided that we're going to have not only a leadership development one, but a leadership development two. So we're gonna put the people who graduated from LDP one into this now LDP two program, and really kind of continue that coaching journey, continue building their skillset.

Really a lot of it around self-awareness. And around just how you show up and some of the things that trip you up and how can you successfully work through them. So there's feedback from the manager on where they think the coachee needs to be, needs to be, have improvement or expand their skillset. But then there's also confidential conversations.

There's a high degree of confidentiality between the coach [00:36:00] and the mentee, and they. They have that trust, they build that trust and we don't get that feedback, and so they're able to kind of have that communication so it provides a safe environment while giving them skills to grow and partnering. We also assign them with a mentor who's someone that they don't report into, so they have a senior leader in the organization that they meet with monthly.

And go over what they're struggling with, what they're talking about. They talk to their mentor about how did you handle this situation if you came across X, Y, and Z. So they have a, a real life person within the organization as well as their coach. It's just a fantastic program.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: I, I, I love it. It's, it's very much up my alley. It's very similar to some stuff that, that, that I. That I do with clients. 'cause you've got multiple facets here. So for listeners, I just wanna underscore, you know, this is around learning as a journey as a [00:37:00] marathon, not a sprint. And it's not just a one-time event.

So it's, it's a process that takes place over time and there's a lot of different inputs and supports and time it sounds like, for the people in the program to kind. Be thinking about and applying. 'cause that's where the learning happens, is in between sort of the group coaching 

sessions as you think it through, well what does it mean for me?

And the, you know, my one-on-one meetings and, and working with a mentor. So I appreciate you sharing kind of the structure of it. I think there's a lot of goodness there. You, you mentioned that it's been such a success. I'm curious, you know, 'cause this is, this is a tough piece for people. How do you actually measure that?

What are you, what are you looking at that tells you this?

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: There's a couple of different ways. We actually did a post class survey just to see how people felt about the program. It's really around conversations with the manager on the engagement. After the person graduated from the program, also through our retention, not one person that's participated in the program now, it just ended in June.

But we're in [00:38:00] pharma, very competitive market. It's easy to move and find somewhere else to go. There are companies that pay much more than we do because we're small, and that's where you have to be creative in your retention strategies. But nobody's left and our, we have. Scores, sentiment scores through our HRIS system and we track those and those are still consistently high.

So it's, it's really a multiple of data points and people are asking for it again, and people are now also asking to be a part of the next class that starts. So there's a lot of buzz around it. And Lisa, I just really, if you're, if someone listening is an HR practitioner and not simply an employee, 

just really look at the creative ways to retain employees that aren't money and aren't benefits because there's so many of them out there. And I'm happy to provide you, Lisa, with information on this program. If anybody else wants to mirror it, I'm happy to share.[00:39:00] 

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Thank you. That's very generous. The one other question I had around this before we kinda wrap shortly is, is you mentioned that these are high potential people in this first cohort and, and that people have to ask though to be in the program. So is does that mean that you sh that people know if there've been designated high potential?

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: They don't know if they've been designated high potential. But when we were having the program, we put out basically a call to action, and the program started in January. So in October we put out a call to action for people to ask to be either a mentor or a mentee in the program. And then once the people who were the mentees.

Asked to be in. We sat around as a management team and we talked about did it make sense for them to be in it. Actually, everyone who asked got into the program just because of the way we're what we do, we are really hiring the best of the best. So almost everyone is a high performer where, where I am in a small [00:40:00] organization, you can say that for the most part, not a hundred percent of the time, but the people who aren't typically either self-select out.

Quickly because they know it's not gonna fit for them. So it's, it really, that's what, that's what we did. And so we notified the people in December. They, they applied in October, we met in November, and then we notified everybody in December about who was in the program. We actually unveiled it at our town hall.

And so it was a slide that, you know, people didn't know that they were officially selected until the slide was presented. But again, it was everyone. So that was a no risk type of a announcement.

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. A little bit about the selection process as well. 'cause I think, I think that's really key, right? That you, you know, just as with the hiring piece that, that you're selecting the right people to create the best possible dynamic in each cohort. So 

thank you so much, Susan.

This has been a really great conversation. We've covered lots of ground and 

I've. 

Susan Ways GMT20231018-141352_Recording_separate2: I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much, Lisa.[00:41:00]