Modelling Vulnerability with Preet Makkar

“We have a responsibility to show vulnerability.”
-Preet Makkar

How comfortable are you with being vulnerable at work?  I’m not talking about over-sharing, but rather sharing your humanity and sometimes painful learnings with others so that they don’t feel so alone.  

In today’s episode, my guest makes the case for being transparent about our own struggles.

Preet Makkar is a Human Resource leader with 20+ years of experience working in various HR disciplines. She has spent the entirety of her professional HR career at GSK/Haleon starting as a freelance HR coordinator in 2001. During her tenure, she has held progressively senior roles across rewards, talent management, leadership development, I&D and business partnering roles.

She is currently the Canada HR Head and is excited with the opportunity to shape the culture of a new healthcare company and differentiate Haleon Canada as a progressive, employee focused and inclusive employer.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

• A glimpse into one person’s experience working in mainly one organization for over 2 decades
• The positive impact of a senior leader sharing their own struggles openly 
• Some ideas around what the recipe for success looks like in a modernized workplace with the next generation

Links

• Preet Makkar on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/preet-makkar 

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Transcript

LM Ep 104

 [00:00:00] 

How comfortable are you with being vulnerable at work? Now, I'm not talking about oversharing, but rather sharing your humanity and sometimes painful learnings with others so that they don't feel so alone. [00:01:00] In today's episode, my guest makes the case for being transparent about our own struggles. Preet Mekar is a human resources leader with over 20 years of experience working in various HR disciplines.

She's spent her entire career at GSK, now Halion, starting as a freelance HR coordinator way back when. She is currently the Canada HR head and is excited to work with Halion and differentiate the company as a progressive employee focused and inclusive employer. In this episode, you'll discover a glimpse into one person's experience working in mainly one organization for over two decades, the positive impact of a senior leader sharing their own struggles openly, and some ideas around what the recipe for success needs to look like in a modernized workplace with the next generation.

Thanks for listening. Enjoy.

 [00:02:00] 

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truths. I'm your host Lisa Mitchell and today I am joined by Preet Mekar. Preet is the head of HR Canada at Halion. Welcome to the show Preet.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: Thank you for having me.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: My pleasure. So let's kick off by having you share a little bit about your unique career journey and what you do at Halion.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: Sounds good. So, when I reflect on this, I can't believe where the years have gone, but I have been with GSK and now Halion since 2001. So over 22 years with one organization all within HR in various functions. So primarily operations, talent management or design DEI and it's just. flown by.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: Amazing. So today, so what's so you mentioned, you know, you've been 22 years with GSK and Halion. So maybe you can back up and help the audience understand who Halion is and what they produce. You'll recognize some brand names, people and GSK. What's the connection?[00:03:00] 

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: Absolutely. So G. S. K. Canada was a pharmaceutical vaccines and consumer company. I'm sure that if you open up your medicine cabinet, you would have a product for sure from G. S. K. Canada. Back in 2000 and 18, I believe Pfizer and G. S. K. Did have a joint venture with the intention for Haley on, which is the consumer part.

to branch off from GSK. So we are just, we are over a year old. July last year, we became Halion. Halion stands for strength and health. And we're very excited. So our brands, I'm sure you will recognize them. So Sensodyne, Polydent, we have pain relief like Voltaren and Advil, Tums, Centrum, Emergency, Flonase, a lot of products that people use every day.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: Oh yeah, right there. I use Sensodyne, big fan, and Sloanase because I sound a little nasal, people. I'm sorry, I have a really bad head cold right now. I'm fine, but I'm nasally. But that's, you know, those have been in my medicine cabinet for sure. And, you know, my dad was a [00:04:00] pharmacist. I don't know if I shared that with you before pre, but I started working with him from the age of 13.

So every summer, every Christmas, right through both degrees, like all the way through. So GSK was great, you know, we used to. I was good friends with our drug rep that would come into the store, you know, she was a real mentor to me back in the day. And so that sort of been a, in my, in my world, GSK, for a very long time and Upjohn and Pfizer and all these different ones.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: that's right. Now, many people know the names. They usually know the products,

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: Yeah.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: so Halion being new and especially being an HR professional, trying to get the name Halion out there, making sure that, you know, top talent want to work for Halion. So it's actually an exciting time. We're at infancy stage to really create our own brand.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: Yeah, and you worked with Nicole Stewart, who has been a former guest on the show and is a friend of mine for purposes, you might want to go back and listen to that one because

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: I did.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: that, yeah, she she was heading up HR and you were working with her there at GSK. [00:05:00] So she's now at Jameson. So let's, let's kind of.

Move along from that piece and, and talk about, you know, this experience, the fact that, you know, 22 years, significant amount of experience in the HR discipline, and it's been with, you know, except for Halion, but it's all similar, right? And it kind of connected 22 years, one company, what's that experience been like for you?

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: You know, I, it doesn't feel like one company when I look back because in 2001, I tell everyone I grew up and grew old, GSK and Helion, I was 20, 25, you know, you're bright eyed, bushy tailed and single. And over the course of the 22 years, married three daughters now. Teenage daughters and the company has gone through so much change.

And I think many of us would probably look back at our employer, even if it's only been three years or five years, depending on the type of change, it can feel like a new company that you join. So, you know, I joined just when GSK was founded Glaxo Welcome and SmithKline Beach and I joined together and I, and I [00:06:00] remember walking down the halls and actually.

feeling that there was two camps. I could almost point out who was the GW and who was a Smith Klein Beachum because the cultures were so different. And over that time, you know, we've had numerous shifts and changes in the way we do business. We were very local Canada focused. We started becoming more global.

We've had other JVs with with Novartis. And I've also supported different parts of the business, like I mentioned before. So primarily the global support functions and commercial, and Nicole actually remembers this well, but she came to me back in 2018 and said, Hey, listen, you've never done consumer.

Why don't you go do that for a year and see if you like it? And I said, well, can I have some time to think about it? And she said, well, we're announcing it on Monday. So get used to it. But it was actually. I never realized how defining that moment was going to be for me. I've had the opportunity to work for five years now with the consumer business.

I love it. I love the fast pace. I love the [00:07:00] innovation that comes out of it. The leaders that I'm working with and, you know, once the JV was announced and we knew I was now going to lead GSK, it was a bit hard because I felt like I bled orange there for a bit. Now I'm lime green. Both colors are not necessarily my colors to wear, but I pushed through that.

But yeah, you know, I, I would say that I've, I've always learned something new and trying different roles every couple of years has helped keep things really fresh.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: I, you know, I appreciate how you said it was kind of a defining moment when it was like, oh, I'm going consumer side, like, is a different side, even though it's the same company, it can feel like a net new job starting a new job because, you know, I relate when I was coming back from at leave with Patrick and I had been leading the.

The talent management learning area and was a performance consultant and a business partner. And I, you know, my boss, it was going to be the same boss, same company, different location though, had offered me when I came back to be an HR business partner, director supporting sales among other groups.

And I, I remember, [00:08:00] you know, it was a defining moment for me as well, because I wasn't quite sure I wanted it. And at the same. I'm really grateful I did that role for five years and it gave me greater depth and breadth in, in the, in the overall area of people and culture. And I'm grateful for that because I, I lean into that experience every single day, even though I'm now back to focusing very much on development and talent management.

So yeah, these defining moments, right? Even if in the moment they're like, Oh my God, this is uncomfortable.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: I've learned the ones that I don't want are usually the ones that I learned the most from. I don't know if you've had the same experience. I go kicking and screaming and then I walk out of there saying, thank God I actually did that. It, it can be really interesting. And for me, I think the, the defining moment was really, I don't know this business and I don't know how I'm going to be successful in this business.

And you just learn, you have a toolkit. I always say you have a toolkit. You have tons of things. Sometimes you rely on the hammer. Sometimes you rely on, I'm not, you know, A screwdriver. Clearly, I'm not a do it [00:09:00] yourselfer, but and that's what I tell people when you when you go into different roles. It's really about building your toolkit and and your experiences as well.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: Yeah, so actually let's go down this path of, of kind of some of the trepidation that you felt at that moment and then also when Halion split off formally. So the split happened with GSK and you know, you had shared with me in the, in the green room about this idea of, of your 

alter ego raising her ugly head. What's her, what's she all about?

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: is Helga. So apologies to anyone whose name is Helga. I just found it a terrifying name and I had this visual and it was right around the time of the JV being announced and everyone was having to go through selection. Right. Assessment and selection. They were having to essentially reapply for their jobs, which can be very stressful.

And I remember being in a town hall and, you know, I didn't have to go through it myself, but how do I help these people understand that I know what they're going [00:10:00] through? And I said, Hey guys, I'm going to introduce you to Helga. She's my alter ego. She is not kind. She says things to me that are not true, but that I believe that I'm not worthy.

I'm not good enough. There's always somebody better. And we all have our Helga. And it's important to embrace that version of ourselves, right? Cause that's really our fears and then facing our fears. and since then I've had many people come up to me in the hallway and separate meetings and, you know, my Helga is out of control or, Hey, my Helga said something to me in a meeting and I thought about it.

And I think it just goes to self reflection and development and. A lot of that isn't just about what we learn from others, it's about the different iterations of ourselves and how we learn along the way as well.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: Well, it's this idea of parts work. Some of my coach friends are, have been delving into this a little bit further and it's, it's it's, you know, related directly to psychotherapy and so on. And it's this idea that there's many parts of us and it's working to recognize when we're kind of inhabiting one part in particular and how do we.

Take advantage [00:11:00] of all of the parts available to us. How do we take care of all of that? So your Helga is my inner Dementor. So my inner critic, I call it the Dementor because it sort of feels like in Harry Potter, you know, the, how they would sort of swoop down this darkness and everything feel ominous and hopeless. And, you know, the antidote to that being the inner ally. So my inner ally is my best friend, Lynn, because I think about, okay, so I'm in, you know, Dementor land. So I'm not seeing things clearly. I'm not seeing them holistically. So what would Lynn say? What would my inner ally say? And she'd say, you've got this.

You always do. You are going to figure it out. And just being reminded of that moment, remembering her voice saying that to me is very powerful.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: So is Lynn a real person or is

she an alter ego? 

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: friend. She's awesome.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: so you can pick up the phone and you can call Lynn. And for those of us that don't have a Lynn, hopefully everyone has a Lynn. I think, I think having Friends in our lives is so important. It's about trying to be that friend to yourself and it's [00:12:00] easier said than done.

And I tell that to my teenagers all the time, but you know, and my many alter egos, I said, well, you know, Trinity is my other alter ego and she thinks I'm freaking fantastic.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: So she's your ally. Trinity, right?

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: Yeah, so she'll say you have to ignore Helga. She doesn't know what she's talking about. You got this and you're a superstar, but, but you have to summon Trinity up once in a while.

And I think it's about finding that balance.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: Frequently, I have one client whose inner ally is Beyonce, right? Like, like in her mind, she's like, cause she's like, I can't really think, you know, of a friend that's close enough that, that, that is the voice that would come to, to help me when I need it. So Beyonce was, cause she's like, I am in flow and I'm listening to Beyonce, you know, like, I just feel like all is right.

And this woman is fierce. And so I want to channel some of that. So it's, you know, it's just this, this concept of, you know, the inner critic. You're Helga, my dementia. They're there to protect us, to watch out for us, and at the same time they can be overdone. So, being agile and deciding, wait a second, I'm going to sort through some of the fictions you're feeding [00:13:00] me, and, and get more clear on what's actually fact.

At any rate, so I, I, Really love that you brought that into the town hall with employees, especially when everybody was feeling so vulnerable, yourself included, right? Like that really demonstrates vulnerability because one of the things I'm on a mission to do, honestly, is to help people in general, like it within the area of HR, people in culture, talent management Help them understand that this is, this is a real thing that we all deal with as humans, right?

That, that we do have these, these critics, these you know, imposter syndrome moments and so on. And it's normal, like, to normalize that so that folks like yourself. Who are in a position to help others and develop them and help them, you know, move into more of a growth mindset, for instance, can can have that multiplier effect, right?

And it's also about the next generation, you know, I've talked a bit about that, like myself being 12, heading off to university, becoming [00:14:00] this, you know, self possessed young man. And I've been really conscientious about helping them understand stuff. I wish I knew back then that I wasn't the only one with the nasty girl voice in my head.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: Exactly.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: Anyway, what are your thoughts about how do we Transcribed Help me, the multipliers, you know, both with our kids and with the employees that look to you,

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: Well, I remember when we were the young generation, Lisa, so I'm going to, I'll bring myself back, but being the green one back in 2001 and being, you know, some of the ladies would call me the baby and, and now being in a position where I, my daughter's 20, so I have a 20 year old and 18 year old and the 16 year old.

And I think, how did this happen? Where did the years go? It, it does keep me up at night often to make sure that I'm the right role model for my daughters and, and for the employee population. Some of it's unrealistic, right? I mean, we all have our, it's a job that you want to do. You want to do it well, but I want to have a positive impact.[00:15:00] 

And I think the way that I can do that personally is by breaking some of the cycles that I know my mother and my grandmother have had to live through. Culturally. I mean, I'm a first generation, my mom, I'm from a Punjabi culture, you know, very male dominated. I just remember, you know, the men ate first, the women didn't really talk you know, they were there really to serve the family and to take care of them and growing up constantly getting berated for challenging my dad and asking questions and why do you ask why all the time?

And, and I've encouraged my daughters to. To not be afraid to ask me why and to challenge and for me to unlearn some of the things that I think historically and generationally, we just continue to do until somebody says, I'm not doing that anymore. And so you're like, well, you know what? Just try it out.

Why didn't I stop doing that? So, for me, when I think about the importance we have for our. Children, it's breaking some of the cycles that don't serve us anymore and then [00:16:00] understanding when they break cycles that maybe we're a bit attached to. So that's something that is really, yeah, it really impacts me.

We have these conversations, sometimes they participate and sometimes they're like, mom, we don't want to have one of these conversations again, but it's about, you know, well, what does happiness mean and, and, and, and like inner happiness and how do you do that? You know, the society is obsessed with finding somebody who you love, like love yourself before you do that and travel and, and, and know what you love to do and make it your sense of purpose.

And, and, and I'm still figuring that out too, by the way, guys. So just because your mom is a lot older, doesn't mean she's been there, done that, and she has it all figured out. And for our employees, I think it's a lot about. Modernizing our workplace and H. R. has a tremendous opportunity to do that challenging our leaders that may have gotten there because the recipe for success look very different.

And we need to change that recipe. Now, the generation demands more flexibility. They demand more [00:17:00] opportunity, more inflate, more flexibility, not just in when they go into work, but. Or how they dress, but you know, how they're able to challenge each other and how work gets done through others. And policy sometimes can get stagnant.

And so, you know, all that fun policy work, it's like, do we need this guys? Is this serving us? Is this going to help us get to where we need to go?

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: you know, well, so many places we could go with this because what what came up for me there, as you were talking about, you know, I'm picturing you at work, kind of looking through this lens of. You know, there's been lots of great things in place that have served us well till now. What, what do we need now though?

How do we continuously evolve it because things have a shelf life. There's nothing wrong about that. It just is. So how do we keep evolving to modernize and make sure it's working for what people need now? And that, that kind of runs to, you know, you sharing with me when you first. Got going a year ago at Halion after the split [00:18:00] from GSK.

And so a lot of the inner voice was saying, okay, what would Nicole do? Your former boss? Awesome. And it's a great question to ask. I asked like, what would Nicole do? And she is, she was my HR business partner when I was a first time manager. So going back, Oh, I'm dating myself here. You know what? It's 30 years ago.

And, and she, she was really instrumental actually in my growth as a leader. I will tell you, she was really phenomenal. So anyways, so good question to ask, but you had shifted from, from that because. Now you're a leader. Truly, you always were in your own right, but now you're starting to really understand that.

So, so tell us about what that process was like for you.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: It was a bit terrifying 

and it's kind of like when you're a mom for the first time and everyone's giving you advice and you're questioning and second guessing yourself. And then by the third child, you're like, got this. I know what I'm doing. I think, I think with this.[00:19:00] Going from how would Nicole manage this?

Because I have so much respect for her as a professional. And I learned so much from her and I channel Nicole. Sometimes I'll text her and I'll say, you'd be so proud of me. I was totally you in this meeting with this vendor and X, Y, Zed. And, and then other times, you know, I know that she's her and I were so different that we really.

We worked well together. We balanced that head and heart and we would challenge each other. And so I went from second guessing everything Lisa to now saying, I'm going to give my permission to lead. I'm going to give myself permission to be the leader that I am. This is a role that I've been given. It's an important role.

I have tremendous responsibility and I'm going to trust my instinct because I have a lot of experience and everyone makes mistakes, but I'm going to leverage it The people around me and I'm going to make sure that this is a success So things like challenging some of the policies and procedures we lifted and shifted from gsk and saying yeah I think those are dated or challenging, you know our benefits and realizing we don't have enough [00:20:00] support for mental health and partnering with my head of finance and Making sure we're heavily investing in that because it's so important.

It's it's what we need in the future It's it's highlighting our dei And doing employee spotlights where, you know, employees take turns in front of everyone talking about, Hey, I'm an introvert. And I think it kind of sucks how everyone thinks the profile, the leader is an extrovert. Let's talk about it.

Or someone else, someone else saying I have dyslexia and it was really hard for me in the workplace or, Hey, you know what, as a mom, I really struggle and I'm taking care of my children or elderly parents. Those spotlights are helping us put ourselves in other people's shoes in a very informal, modern way versus that formal training that we used to have 20 years ago.

They served their purpose then, but how do we shift and modernize it now?

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: Yeah. And it is interesting because it's, it's it sounds like it's really connecting to, you know, that finger on the pulse. Like, what do people want and need? So they want support in this area. Or they need it, at least. And how do we deliver it in a way that's [00:21:00] palatable, that means them where they're at, so that informality, which, which feels more modern, makes a lot of sense.

Okay, so this, you know, You said to me earlier, too, that when you were working with Nicole, that sometimes you could drive each other a little crazy because she did come at things so, so differently, and yet there was this beautiful complementarity. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: Sure. You know, we've talked about being different versions of ourselves and back when Nicole joined, I think over 10 years ago, I'd, I had been in there 10 years already. So here's my new boss. It's like, she doesn't know GSK the way I know it. And I gave her a hard time. I think if she was on this call, she'd say pre drove me absolutely nuts.

But you know, I was jokingly called the union leader back then. So I was the voice of the employee and the voice of HR. And, you know, here's what we need to do better. And, and Nicole was very balanced. And so she, you know, we said that she used her head and I used my heart. And there was [00:22:00] times where I needed to use my head a bit more and there was times where she needed to leverage her heart.

It's not like we didn't have those parts of ourselves. We just overuse the other part. And so over the years you know, we've learned so much from each other, but we sat in offices beside each other where she'd come in and she's like, okay. I need your heart for a second. Here's the scenario. And I'd say, here's what it is.

And we'd hash it out and then off she'd go. And I'd go in, I'm like, I need your brain. I need this. And we need to do a better job. First of all, acknowledging how often we do this, how there's so much power in leveraging each other's strengths. We cannot be perfect in everything, Lisa, that's never going to happen, but we know people that are really good at a lot of things.

So let's give ourselves permission to not be the expert, but to tap on those shoulders and to be those mentors and coaches for each other, because HR shoemakers, children, you know, we, we coach and support leaders to do this. We don't always do it for ourselves. And this community, the one that you've created.

I love it. It's an [00:23:00] opportunity for us to learn from each other, not feel alone, maybe ping somebody later to say, Hey, you know, when you had that talk, what did you mean by this? Do you have a few minutes? There's so much, so much wealth in that. And Nicole and I, I think did a great job of doing that with each other.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: Yeah, it's, it's this idea of even just you bringing up the heart and head because that this was something that was a hard lesson learned for me. you know, we tend to as a culture in Western culture lead from the head right like we're trying to logically push through different problems and, and, and, you know, even.

Then we kind of do that with relationships and interactions and so on. And, and we forget that again, back to that parts work thing. And I don't, I'm not saying I have a deep understanding of this myself, but like, you know, we are more than just our head. We are heart. We are gut. And so here's an example of, you know, inaction to people.

Deciding kind of contracting with each other, you know, Hey, I need you to use your head a little bit here, your heart a little bit more lean into it, becoming more agile, [00:24:00] you know, and that's, that's kind of the name of the game, you know, With you and Nicole and that whole scenario, it makes me think of my former boss for 10 years Sherry Dondo, who's also, she was one of the earliest guests on the, on the, on the show.

And she's a highly assertive person and I wasn't so much back

then. I, I was nice. I was, you know, they called me Pollyanna at my previous company, you know, in a good way. I was this high achiever, but they were like, she's just so nice. And, you know, I always, tell Sherry a teaser, you know, I had to learn how to tap into my inner Sherry, but likewise, she had to learn to kind of find, you know, a happy medium.

Sometimes, depending on the situation, the context, the person where she could lighten up a little bit, right? A little less challenging, a little more, appreciative. And, and so we balanced each other off in, in, in such a beautiful way. Bumpy at the beginning, but it's one of the experiences I'm most grateful for in, in my life, in my career.

And that also makes me think about, you appreciated a [00:25:00] recent solo episode I did around empowering roles.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: I loved it.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: Yeah, and, and it's funny because when I hear you talk about you and Nicole or me talking about me and Sherry, it's easy to see people where we don't kind of see eye to eye or kind of see the world the same way, to see them as persecutors.

And yet they're really there, they're meant to teach us something, they're meant to challenge us to, to thinking, to, to growing. So I don't know, I just wondered if you had any comments around that.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: Well, I it really resonated for me on the personal front as well as on the professional front because We all can get sucked into victim mode, right? There are times where you come home and you're absolutely exhausted and the kids haven't loaded the dishwasher or you know Somebody was difficult at work and my parents are aging and you know My mom is Parkinson's and so there's some days that are really exhausting and tiring and so you think woe is me And what a tough life I have.

And, and then you just almost need to like shake out of it. And the [00:26:00] creator versus victim mode for me is something that I try consciously to do. I don't always get it right. I do it better at work. And I don't know if that's because I get paid to do it. I've been reflecting on that and it's also because we're trying to do that for others.

So helping others see the opportunity for them to create or coach, right? We're all trained with questions to ask and when do you put the mentor hat on the manager hat versus the coach hat? And how do you do that for yourself? And and sometimes I'm the prosecutor at home. So with my teenage daughters, I, I can't play that role.

We all know anyone on this call who has children that does that backfires. Really, really badly. How do I become that person that's going to challenge them and be that safe space for them? So I often ask myself, what role am I in right now? Where am I stuck and how do I get out of it? And usually it's just sometimes even talking to yourself in the mirror or looking at your body language, where I realize I'm like, like tightening my jaw because I'm [00:27:00] not in a good space.

And you're like, okay, loosen up. Pretty, you know, go for a walk, shake it off. But I, I love the way it shifts from. Lack of power to powerful interactions and relationships. So I, I thought this session was fantastic.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: yes, thank you. Well, and I'm going to put it in the show notes again. There's a great resource. So this is so just to back up for the audience. So, you know, I talked about it on the solo episode called shifting into empowered roles, which you can find on my website. It's based, it's, it's, it's around a book by David Emeril called Ted, the Empowerment Dynamic.

And so it's, he's talking about antidote roles to Stephen Cartman's dreaded drama triangle. So you have victim, persecutor and rescuer and how, what are the roles that are the antithesis of those things? So I won't go into it in any more detail, but if you're interested, I do encourage you to look at it because just today I was telling you, Preet, you know, I just shared.

These resources, my podcast and, and also the, the, the website for Ted with her because she was really [00:28:00] feeling like she was in victim mode and because it was all about finger pointing and I can't fix anything. Nothing's within my control. It's all being done to me. And when you're in that, it's not a nice place to be.

It can feel very righteous and like, we can kind of grind and dig our heels in and yet we're hating it. We're miserable. And you know, it makes me think of an example just yesterday. I was doing laundry and, and I had to go out and do some stuff and my husband had put the, the laundry, it was moved it from the washer to the dryer. Anyways, I go and open the dryer and all of my son is six four and has very long pants. And so my husband as well. And if you don't shake the pants out when they're wet, wrinkles get baked into them and no iron is going to. Help you with this. So I was so grumpy pulling out these pants and there were like four pairs no less And I'm like, oh my god, and I'm I'm gonna have to iron these and this is gonna be a pain And all this I was in total [00:29:00] victim mode and then I sort of went.

Okay. Wait a second Did he do this on purpose to piss you off? No, he just didn't know your little trick of shaking this stuff out because he doesn't usually do the laundry and he was trying to help you. And immediately I went, Oh my God, okay, hang on Lisa. How can I shift from victim into creator mode? First of all, give the guy a break. He didn't do anything wrong. So I'm not even going to say anything. Secondly, I could tell him, Hey, I have a little tip for you for next time. Not a big deal. I could just watch them again so that, so that I don't have to spend all that time ironing. Right?

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: Look at that. But could you have come up with those solutions if you were sleep deprived and hungry or hangry and tired? And I think it goes back to if we don't take care of ourselves, it's so easy to go into victim mode because you just don't have the energy to get out of it.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: Absolutely. You know, that makes me think of, you had shared an example when you were going through the restructuring and you're trying to, 

you know, paint a smile on your face and go in and support everybody. [00:30:00] What's, what was what was the story around when you kind of hit a moment of like, oh, my God, how can I keep this up?

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: Yeah. And you know, I, I don't know how many Hylian friends are going to be listening to this, but I do try really hard to be super positive. I, I actually try to try to be a comedian at work, sometimes very unsuccessfully. My kids would vouch for that, but I just think that we are work. And so you might as well have fun.

But during times of change and restructure, it can be really difficult. And I think I did hit rock bottom back when we were in the midst of, you know, interviewing everybody for their positions and many individuals were having to lose their job. And, you know, this is the part of HR that none of us like.

It's the part that reinforces the grim reaper. They're out to get you, you know, they're for the company, not for the people. And I also had stuff going on at home, you know, teenage daughters, I had some challenges. Parents were aging, trying to manage through all of that. And I pulled into work one day.

And I just couldn't get out of the car, Lisa. [00:31:00] I just could not bring myself to open the car door and go inside and put that smile on and say good morning like 75 times before I got to my desk. So I pulled out of the driveway and I remember parking in a gas station close by and I called EAP and I had a good cry.

And I asked for help because there was just too much and I was tapped out. And I ended up calling a therapist. I, I love therapy. I continue to use my therapist. She is, she is amazing. And it was just to help me see the forest from the trees and put things into perspective because I lost that ability to put things into perspective.

And I think we all do that sometimes. But that was definitely a moment where I needed to ask for help, and I didn't know who else to go and go to. And sometimes you need a professional. And I remember talking to employees about that a few months later, you know, at a whole company meeting or something where I [00:32:00] said, guys, this was what happened to me, and it's okay if it happens to you.

And I think, well, I know that as leaders, we have a responsibility to show vulnerability and be authentic and give people permission to be themselves as well. We don't, we work in a corporate environment, but you don't have to be corporate. You don't have to be stuffy, right? You know, those days of jeans on a Friday, thank God those days are long gone.

Blazer and pearls thing, you know, it's, you know, we're, we have work to do and we can be authentic to who we are and stay true to ourselves and still be very successful in the workplace.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: well, I want, I really want to acknowledge you as a leader because, you know, that's the 2nd example you shared of where, you know, 1st with Helga and then with this, you know, calling EAP and getting a therapist, you've shared that very openly with employees, which for many leaders, they wouldn't even.

Think about that, that they feel like that was admitting that they were weak or something was wrong. And yet it's the very opposite. It's the strong, strongest thing you can do to ask for help and then to share that you've asked for help because that's how [00:33:00] we ensure that other people are getting what they need to, to succeed, to thrive, you know, versus struggle.

So, so thank you for sharing those examples with us as well here. I think it's really really powerful. That, that kind of brings me to, you know, a wrap up question here, because time has flown. Hopes for the next generation. How do we help our kids, employees coming up, you know, people hitting the workforce now that are looking for different, different markers of satisfaction, of purpose, of, of wellbeing?

How can we help them?

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: So I'll tell you, I went to this yoga retreat many, many years ago and the gentleman, you know, he said, okay, anyone who makes more than six figures, raise your hand. And, you know, a lot of people raise their hand. Who has a house? Who has a car? Who goes on vacation? And the yoga retreat was how to be happy.

And he said, so if you've done all those things that were supposed to be the recipe for happiness, then why are you here? [00:34:00] So clearly that didn't work. I would love our younger generation to figure out what that happiness is going to look like for them and then honor that and be true to themselves. My daughters have all told me that they will never go into HR.

I, I actually love my job. So clearly I don't make it look as fun as it should be, but you know, two of them want to be in science. The other one's not quite sure what she wants to do, but just find out what you really enjoy. And don't get caught up with climbing any type of ladder. Just do what makes sense for you.

I think that's the most important thing. Don't be afraid of hard work.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: yes.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: I I, you know, there is something to be said about experience now, not to the point of, Hey, you have to be here for 10 years before you move on to the next role. Absolutely not. I'm going to challenge that. I always disagreed with it, but experiences are really important and listen and learn, and then, you know, Embrace your mistakes and own them and then when you really feel strongly about something use your [00:35:00] voice And then once you have that courage use it for other people who don't have their voice There's so many layers to who we are and they have the whole world is there is really for the taking, right?

I tell my girls you're it's your generation. It's up to you guys now and for our employees I think it's the same find the right balance for you Whatever that looks like at work and at home and honor both of those versions of yourself and hopefully find an employer that will help you support your career development and aspirations, but protect you and your health and give you enough time to be there for your families.

lot of us burnt out, you know, we burned the candles of both ends, you know, exactly what I'm talking about, because you 

needed to do this to get to the next place. And I don't think we need to do that anymore. Don't be afraid of hard work, but don't be afraid of putting up boundaries where you need to.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: such sage advice, you know, and, and, you know, you said find an employer that kind of gets that because there's, there's lots of options and it's, it's easy to fail the victim, right? To feel like there's nothing you could do. And there's always things you can do. You can ask [00:36:00] for more context, you can ask for more flexibility, you know, respectfully and, and, and think about what, you know, what, what's your boss thinking about, right?

So you meet them where they're at, but if you're truly. Have done your best to, to get what you need and you're not getting there. Then it is time to look at how do you create shift from victim to creator, you know, what works for you somewhere else. So I hope people are all starting to write their resignation letters, but you know, if it's right for them, then, then great.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: Well, you've, I love that you created a forum because you didn't see it, right? So you created something because you saw a gap and a lot of us want to do that, but we're not courageous enough to do that. So I, I admire your ability to do that for yourself. You've inspired me to think about what is it that I want to create outside of what I've already been able to create.

And my greatest joy and creations are my three children who need me less and less, freeing me up for some capacity on what, what's my next chapter. Right. What am I doing? How do I continue to [00:37:00] redefine who I am? And so I guess, I guess our time hasn't gone. We still have enough time to redefine what that looks like as well.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Well, it sounds a bit like legacy, like you're shifting into, you know, what's kind of my legacy that I want to be remembered for. And it's definitely been on, on my mind being a few years ahead of you. like what are we putting out in the world? What's the impact we want to have ultimately?

And I don't think you're ever kind of done. There's always time shift and, and, and change in that direction. So

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: Absolutely. 

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: This has been a wonderful conversation. I think you and I need to meet up for a real life coffee and continue it because I've really enjoyed our time together.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate2: You know what? I have a lot of time on my hands now, Lisa, so feel free to reach out. I'd love to meet with you somewhere for coffee, but thank you for making this so comfortable. And for anyone who's listening and questioning whether they should be on this podcast and really nervous. I was terrified especially after listening to others that are so great at what they do, but you make this so comfortable for everyone.

So thank you, Lisa.

Preet GMT20230926-173550_Recording_separate1: I'm so glad that that was your [00:38:00] experience. Thanks. Thank you. Everyone. Have a great day.