Improving Candidate Experience with Mark Smith

“When we’re hiring for [Sally’s] team, we can say here’s a job description for the role and also we’re attaching Sally’s Linkedin profile so you get a sense of Sally and her thought leadership.”

- Mark Smith

When it comes to talent acquisition, is your organization providing an authentic and engaging candidate experience, or are you still stuck in traditional approaches? Are you exploring innovative ways to attract diverse talent and modernizing your hiring processes for the digital age? In today’s episode, my guest and I explore the future of hiring and its impact on company culture.

My guest is Mark Smith. Mark is the Senior Director of Global Talent Acquisition at Medtronic, and medical devices company with over 90,000 employees.  

Mark has led talent acquisition teams at industry titans such as Randstad, Caterpillar Inc., Amazon, SC Johnson, and The Kraft Heinz Company. 

His fervor for talent and leadership is boundless, as he strives each day to evolve into a leader who not only propels our company to new heights of excellence but also fosters a culture of trust, inspiration, and innovation. He is a staunch advocate for bringing one's authentic self to the workplace and embodying the principles of servant leadership—enabling, coaching, and empowering our teams with vigor, passion, and a clear sense of purpose. 🎯

As a British national who has found a second home in the USA, Mark bring a blend of cross-cultural insights and global perspectives to Medtronic.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

• A contrarian view of a common employer question
• Ideas for modernizing job descriptions - and value-added information for candidates
• A case for building your digital presence to boost your leadership and company brand with future employees

Links

• Mark Smith on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markedwardsmithta/ 

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Transcript

When it comes to talent acquisition, is your organization providing an authentic and engaging candidate experience, or are you still stuck in traditional approaches? Are you exploring innovative ways to attract diverse talent and modernizing your hiring processes for the digital age? Well, in today's episode, my guest and I explore the future of hiring and its impact on company culture.

My guest is Mark Smith. Mark is the Senior Director of Global Talent Acquisition at Medtronic, a huge medical devices company with over 90,000 employees. Mark has LED talent acquisition teams at Industry Titans, such as Randstad, caterpillar, Amazon, SC Johnson, and the Craft Heinz Company. He's a highly progressive and engaging TA leader and human based on my interactions with him.

In this episode of Talent Management Truce, you'll discover a contrarian view of a common employer question, ideas for modernizing job descriptions and value added information for candidates. And a case for building your digital presence to boost your leadership and company brand with future employees.

Enjoy. 

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: Welcome to the show, mark. Good to have you here.

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: For having me, Lisa, great to be on the show.

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: My pleasure. Well, let's kick off, you know, please share with, with, with me and, our listeners a little bit about who you are and your career journey. I.

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: Well, Mark Smith, I've been in TA now for, this is my 22nd year, so 22 4 years in, uh. digressed a little bit into other talent section, so some interim leadership and talent management, global leadership development and onboarding as well. But, but my mainstays been ta and I, I started off in 2002. I worked on what I now call the other side, which is working for the agency side.

So I used to work for, this is not a bad thing by the way. I work, I just worked on another side with a deco in Randstad. And I started my very first duty was making coffee and sending faxes and doing

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: And faxes. Oh my goodness.

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: So this is how old I'm, so I'm a, I'm a millennial slash GenX. I'm on the, the, the customer both.

So it depends what day I feel. I love being one, but yeah, I started off there and I moved in-house with my client, caterpillar. I was head of UKTA with CAT for several years before growing up to be head of Europe, middle East, Africa, or EMEA as the acronym goes. Then I joined Amazon in a similar EMEA TA leadership role, and then made my way over to the us.

I had an opportunity to become senior director of TA for Su Johnson, and that, that took me to the Midwest. And I stayed in the Midwest ever since. And I, I, so I moved with my wife to Wisconsin. Johnson to, to lead ta. After a few years there, I, I felt like I needed a new, new opportunity and challenge and joined Kraft Heinz.

And we moved to, I'm relocated to Chicago, and more recently I'm now senior director of global ta in the med tech sector. So, moved, moved outta CPG after several years there with s SC Johnson and Kraft Heinz. And I oversee ta here at Medtronic in Minnesota.

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: Minnesota now. Okay. So moving, moving around the world and around the states. I love it. So, you know, one thing that really struck me there, you know, the fact that you've done little sort of. You know, side gigs, I don't know, or, or temporary gigs in other areas of hr, not always talent acquisition. And, and, and I would just say, and listeners, you'll understand what I mean shortly, is that that comes out in your philosophy and in your approach and just, just in who you are.

When, when you and I first met, I thought, oh, like this guy gets leadership. It's not just about. Talent manager or talent acquisition like you, you see the whole employee experience clearly. Okay. So let's talk a bit about Medtronic. 'cause you've got a really interesting portfolio here. It's the scale and is is quite massive.

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: Yeah, yeah, my, my banner, I dunno if it's there. Hopefully it looks the right way around for.

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: does 75 years of engineering, the extraordinary.

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: Yeah, so that's our, hi. Our hashtag is ENG engineering. They're extraordinary. And so we're 75 years old this year, so we're actually having a whole year celebration, which we kicked off a couple of months ago. So we are in, what is Fraser's? Med Tech. So medical technology. So we, we were founded in 1949 in a gar garage, as I say, or garage as is often said here.

And we. We started with the manufacturer of the, the first pacemaker. So that was the first invention was a battery powered pacemaker. So. We've grown to be more focused on unmet healthcare needs as an organization, and, and our mission is to alleviate pain, restore health, and extend life. So essentially we're committed to investing in our people to, to focus on patients and customers around the world.

We have just in some stats, I think it's just. Depending who I talk to, but between 1900 thousand people, we also have a, a huge amount of contractors and we have employees in 150 countries as well. So it, it's a wonderful organization and I, as I said, I've been here seven months now. And it, it, it's great to put my skills to something that's a little bit different and, and actually connected to something like put in a pacemaker or helping somebody with diabetes or help somebody with chronic pain.

It's really cool.

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Well first wealth is health, as they say, right? So helping people manage pain. So, so it's pacemakers and it's like what are some of the other technologies just that people would recognize? 'cause I know somebody used to be in sales for Medtronic in Canada, but just curious.

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: Yeah. So we have o other products would be perhaps more identified, unknown would be we have like med devices for diabetes to, to track. So med packs that people would, would have kind of on their belts or, or close to their body. Catheters that would conduct like cardiac ablation solutions to, to customers.

So like internal mapping. We also have technologies that in cranium and spine, so for neuroscience as well as cardiovascular and diabetes and, that is small little devices that can actually connect to the spine and help relieve pain within somebody sending short messages to the brain to, to help someone.

Live life. I think that that's really, I've had some wonderful patient stories where we're, we're actually at the forefront of technology to help people adjust to life. Well adjust to their pain and, and their treatment as well. And, and there's another cool device, so it's not, it's actually a machine, but Hugo, who is a really a, a surgical assistant, a, a robot that is, is now being backed with ai.

and I've seen Hugo in operation, but the, what Hugo gives is a real high level of precision and, and support to physicians and doctors in surgery, so that that's, that's coming and growing around the world as well. So that, that's exciting, you know, as

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Very cool. All right, so you've got this massive number of employees globally, and your team is quite extraordinarily large. I think it's the largest one I've heard of when it comes to talent acquisition. How many people do you have, mark?

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: Yeah. So it, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, it, it's a big and glorious team. So, so my exec direct reports is about 11, but my, my team below my 11 reports, who are all fantastic, passionate, engaged recruiters and project leaders is, is about a hundred and really in concluding contracts, it's about 120 people.

So big team.

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: Big team. So, big team, big mandate. So you came in back in November. We're recording this in June. So, so, you know. Just past the, the halfway mark, so to speak. So how did you approach your first six months there at Medtronic, especially when, you know, the scale is so, so large?

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: Yeah, my, my boss Rein hired me and Rainin is the first time I actually had a leader. Truly understands TA to, to a significant level of depth. So Rayon actually kickstarted, she joined about 12 or 18 months prior to me, and she actually kickstarted a, a real shift in change in how we approach TA from a, a perspective of looking at the, the competency, the technology of the, the team and how we would engage with customers.

So she's really laid out something for me to work with, which was, which was great. Coming in. What I wanted to do initially was start to listen. I, I, I've had the opportunity to work for so many great companies. I've mentioned a few, and I've also hired a lot of great executives and, and some executives that perhaps haven't been as successful and learning from them as I've observed and.

Learning from myself you know, and someone that really believes in a growth mindset mentality. I wanted to spend more time listening and understanding the team. So, for those people that know me, they're now quite loquacious or verbose. So I had to withdraw my tong and really use my ears more so I, I conducted.

First of all, I wanna speak to recruiters. They're the people. I was a recruiter. I grew up being a recruiter, and for me, and I said this to the team very quickly and says, joining was the strategy starts. That ends with a recruiter and I, when, say, start, they're closer to the customer, the candidate, the technology, the process, the context.

Often as a leader where I'm not managing recs requisitions directly, I don't have that full scope of contextual awareness. And then from when, I mean when it ends with them, they're activating what we are creating. So it's a real loop. So I wanted to meet recruiters. So I conducted an exercise called, I called Voice of the recruiter.

I grew up in the world of Six Sigma, where I was used to voice of the business or you know, voice of the employee. Yeah, voice. Yeah. The VOC. So I changed it to VOR. And it was an exercise where I and I, I've mentioned to you this in the, in the past where I have a infinity whiteboard on my iPad, and I'm very creative.

I get that from my mother, and I like to doodle and draw. And when I'm writing these notes, I do work in between drawing and doodling. When I, when I'm writing, when I'm writing these notes, I, I started. It was very clear. There were themes around the team. Were talking about their own development, hiring manager development.

They were talking about employer brand, process consistency, partnerships with other functions like total rewards, like, our operation centers, how we can optimize things. And, and concurrently, when I ran, I ran 10 of those meetings with the, the recruiters. I was also talking to end customers. HR leaders of, you know, at all levels, not, not just at senior level on the HR leadership team here, but across the organization just to gather, you know, what I call really the truth.

What's the truth? And I think you need a holistic perspective. I, I didn't wanna just take as much as I'm, you know, I'm pro ta. I, I didn't just want to take the. The view of the recruits, it has to be balanced with how do others feel. And, and also I've read Glassdoor in a lot detail the last two years of data to get a sense of what candidates and employees and former employees have been saying, and that that really helped me set out my plan and what, what I felt we needed to, to move forward.

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: So you, you did your research. Lots of, lots of listening, not not rushing into action, which is, you know, refreshing. So you know, out of. All of those conversations in the voice of the recruiter sessions that you did and you know, working with the different stakeholders and so on, you came up with a set of priorities for talent acquisition.

Would you sort of like tell us what you ended up calling them?

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Yeah. So it's funny how it is the film quite catchy and I quite like it how this has happened. Totally organic and really generated by the team. So once I had all my notes, I met with my leadership team, and this is the team I, I've inherited. And I, I'm, I'm very proud. I've just come off a call with my team.

I'm very proud of my team and, I really appreciate their input into this 'cause they've lived the, the life of Medtronic for many years and I'm coming in to some degree initially as someone that's trying to listen, understand. But, but wants to consult but not be a consultant, you know, to, to, to this team.

And we developed the, the eight priorities that eventually became known as the Great Eight. And we've used the GR eight, and that's thanks to one of the recruiters on the team that helped us get to that GR eight. So it kind of looks kind of street level Cool. Which I like, I need, I need a, I need AI to help me with a logo.

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: plate. I, I've seen it on license plates, I swear.

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: And I, I, I like the eight as well because the eight, I think of the loop, the infinity loop that 'cause I really wanna move to more of an OKR vibe where our objectives are often quite consistent, such as employer brand or or team capability process rigor. These things don't go away, but the key result will differ.

So I'm hoping that the great eight. Grows. I'm already thinking ahead and, and actually one of my new hires to come, I want to give him credit for this. He spoke to me in this process and he said to me, engineer, engineering extraordinary is our hashtag as a company. We want to eng engineer extraordinary.

But he said to me, you can't spell extraordinary. We about the t and NA. So extraordinary. So I, I, I think that's that's great. So I think there's something for us to play on in future years, but the Great eight is, I won't list them all, but one of them is employer brand. Another one's hiring manager capability, another one's TA team Capability.

We have another one, TA Tech integration. And under these, what we're trying to do is ensure that all the stuff we've done in the past and think in the past. What this team, and I think a lot of teams do, they just do the, do. I think TA is probably one of those functions that can typecast itself or be typecast by others to to be transactional.

And the classic is we don't wanna be an order taker. I, I heard this so many times in my career and I will continue to hear it. So I think for TA it's a constant quest to be more than that and to be more anticipative, more proactive, more more consultative, and to really enable our. Ourselves, but also our customers to make better hiring decisions.

And that ultimately we're here to hire the best talent at Medtronic that's gonna achieve the mission, you know, to save lives and help patients. So that, that, that connection was also quite important. The patient connection. That's something I'm, I'm gonna continue to drive, is how do we. In ta 'cause we're often so far removed in the background.

We hire the engineers, the people that design the product, the people that make the product. But we're not as perhaps as tangible as that, but. They wouldn't exist if it wasn't for this team doing the screening, doing the sourcing, helping hiring managers make the right decision. And so what I would like to do is, is, is over the next year to two years and beyond is, is help bring the patient connection to life, you know, to us because we, we do make an impact on patients' lives.

And I think, I think we may have lost a little bit of sight of that during the way.

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: Yes. No there and, and I mean. It, it takes a bit of reflection to sort of step back and say, hang on, there's a direct correlation to the quality of the talent and the skills and the, and the, and the, the, the peop we're dealing with people. This is a human-centric business, right? And the people we're bringing in are the ones touching the client.

There is that direct or the patient in your case, direct correlation. So very important. So with this. Great eight and I, and I love, I love it. It's catchy and it, but it's something people can get behind as well. Really important stuff. You mentioned one of the pieces in there one of the examples is employer brand, that was also hiring manager capability.

And you had shared with me that some, you know, something that you're doing coming out of this, this exercise is helping ensure that hiring managers and recruiters have great. LinkedIn posts. And, and you know, on the surface you might think, well, okay, what does a LinkedIn post have to do with anything here, especially if it's a hiring manager.

Can you share a little bit about where you're coming from with that?

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: the voice of the customer, the hiring manager, they are busy doing their day job and I think it's easy to think that, Hey, you know, LinkedIn is for the recruiters. It's not my game. You do your thing as a hiring manager, I'll do mine, I'll interview them. We're in a world where finding the best talent.

Is super competitive and I am a big subscriber to the notion of, you know, compound effect or the marginal gains. And when I talk to hiring managers, it's, it's not so much a play, but an education to say, the way to think about this is that you are talking to your future employee, you're engaging. Content with someone that's gonna work for you one day.

And it, it, that has helped change the notion with hiring managers. 'cause when I ask hiring managers before I talk about this, I say, what, what is LinkedIn to you? What is social media? Or going through events? And a couple of examples would be, you know, it's just about showing off. It's about. looking great.

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: Schmoozing.

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: yeah. Yeah. And there, there, you know, there is a, there is a lot of that, there's a lot of business development people online, and there's, there's a lot of recruiters online and, and others. But for me, my, my vision is that for every requisition my recruiters can add, I, I'm gonna pick on Dr. Sally Saba, who's our Chief Inclusion and Diversity Officer Officer here at Medtronic.

Yesterday, she wrote a blog on. The notion of meritocracy. And it's a really good article. She put it on LinkedIn and it, it, it's a wonderful piece of thought leadership from her on a word that has so many different connotations globally and what it means in, in a corporate environment. Now, with, sadly, I think that that level of authenticity is.

When we are hiring for her team or her team's team, we can say, here's a job description for the role. And also we're attaching you Sally's LinkedIn profile. So you get a sense of Sally her thought leadership and, and when people are reading that, they get a sense of how she thinks her charisma, her perspective.(19:00)

And it goes beyond that of the job description. And the job description is classically dull. And that's something I really wanna change you. I wanna change. And my vision here is that, and I've written, I'm, we're going through a, a review, I, I suspect in the coming years. But how can we change that to be more digestible for different one, one for different generations, but also more colorful, whether you are a boomer or a Gen Z.

Having more, more images, more illustrations, and, and I think that with LinkedIn it's a way to compensate before it gets all cool to just to give here some context of what it's like. And, and actually the same with me. So when I'm doing things like this, I, I'm trying to get in touch with, I. Future talent that works in my team as a recruiter or as a direct report, or as a peer or a leader.

So they get a sense. I think that having a presence, a digital presence is so important in a world that, you know, the devices, I've got three monitors facing me right now. If I ignore my, my watching phone makes it five. You know, say we're in a digital world where we, we really gotta start to utilize these marginal gains to get in front of talent.

So to me it, it creates a sense of advantage and I. And the goal being to provide a level of authenticity to candidates that this is who your leader could be one day.

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: yes, yes, and yes. And there's so many things in there that I just wanna tease out and, and, and underscore things that I think are of great importance. So, by the way, the classically dull JD made me laugh because my 18-year-old son. Has like a part-time job, not enough hours. And so I am reading a million job ads right now trying saying

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: So, you know.

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: apply to this one.

And I used to write them, you know, like I've led talent acquisition for many, many years in different organizations. So like, it, it is funny, but what I love about what you're doing, for instance, with the example of Dr. Sally is you're proactively saying, here's this piece, which is, you know, it's.

Table stakes. It's kind of like what you need to know and, and, you know, baseline about the role, but additionally, we wanna share with you a bit about, you know, who this leader is, right? And, and proactively serving up the LinkedIn profile and a link to the blog or whatever. And I, I think that's something that when it comes to candidate experience is overlooked by 90% of recruitment teams.

I, I, I, I'm even thinking back, like I really put a ton of emphasis with my teams around. Candidate experience and, and, and closing the loop. You hear about ghosting all the time. Companies ghosting candidates. Candidates go ghosting companies. I mean, this is a real issue. And it's getting worse every day.

So, you know, for, for me, for instance, I was so passionate about, let's make sure even if. The hiring manager is keeping us waiting. We're looping back. We're letting people know where they're at, we haven't forgotten about them. And then even if they're not the chosen one, we're coming back and we're thanking them for their time because these are ambassadors, potential ambassadors for our organization.

And you're taking it one step further. So I wanna acknowledge that with sort of like, you know, here's additional information instead of like, it's a test you, you know, what do you know about us? And let's, you know, maybe they did or didn't come across a podcast with the leader. You know, you're actually saying this might be of interest to you.

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: yeah, yeah. And, and that, that question, that question, you know, tell me what you know about us. I mean, it's. I might be controversial. It's one of the laziest questions a hiring manager or an interviewer can ask. And I think it, it's also very arrogant in my view that, well, one, it it, it's not like 30 years ago when you really had to do your research to understand the culture.

I think now it's, Hey, I just want a glass door, or it's, it's easy. I can ask ai. Now tell me about Medtronic. And I, it, and also the person asked that question knows the answer. And I think it's more a case of, I think why when I interview and I encourage hiring managers, it's, it's getting under the skin intrinsic motivations.

You know, understanding why, why have you applied? You know, what, what, why why are we talking Today is more of an interesting answer to understand the underlying desires and passions for, for, for this role or this company. I think that that's a better question to, to get what you seek. So,

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: I agree. Well, and and you brought up the, the idea that too, you know, like people are going to, I, I think with generations I'm sort of, of the mind that we're all people when it comes down to, but context shapes, generations. And one of the things is, is that, you know, I've, this came up in a networking group I'm part of for entrepreneurs around how the millennials who are now often in the head. Roles and so on. And this was about, you know, what do they need in terms of making decisions around whether to purchase services from a consultant like me or one of my colleagues and so on. And, and you know, we found this great article, I think it was Harvard Business Review, just talking about how they're gonna research you.

They're gonna have checked you out, and if they don't like the website or they don't like the tone on LinkedIn or whatever, like they're. They're less likely to reach in and buy, right? There's less of a trust just because you put your shingle up and you have a website. You know, it's more around is there depth to it.

So I think that, you know, again, with, with you know, proactively saying, Hey, you know, they're gonna be researching you, so here's some other things that, you know, maybe helpful to you and that shed a positive light on, on what you might be walking into. The other piece now is. You had mentioned to me when, when we first chatted about the show and everything that, you know, there's this whole like effort to make sure that we're getting the right fit.

And that's always the thing, right? Like you've got a large number of people that need to sit in labs looking into microscopes all day, and how do you make sure, how do you vet or check for the requisite skills? And almost like. You know, demeanor that that's gonna fit them and be satisfying for them.

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: Yeah, it's, it's skills centric or skills-based hiring is, is a real theme. I mean, you'll see it in most talent.

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: It's everywhere.

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Yeah. It's so what I love about, I mean what, what I don't like about, I'm British, so I'll go cynical first, but what I don't like about, it's the cliche element of it. I think when you, when you dig and dig at it, and I like this, and Matt Walter is our CHRO, he really has challenged us as an organization to use this as an opportunity to, to look for the diversity of thought, the diversity perspective, a true diversity in it in its sense of characteristics of diversity as well.

So with the example of. Our global operations and supply chain organization, we, the kind of assembly work we do in, in what would traditionally be called a blue collar environment is, is involving micro assembly. And this is at the highest level of quality and safety for our patients, but also the employee as well.

And, but, but it, yeah, these devices are gonna go in people's bodies, you know, whether that's in, in the back or in, in, you know, near the organs or in the brain. And these are significant. A significant amount of product that has to be high quality. So to do that, there's a lot of micro assembly, and as you say, there's a lot of microscopic work.

So too, I'm not too sure if you've been to museums or your, you know, kids', schools and stuff, and you see when you look into it, for me, my, you know, I always have issue with my eyelashes. I'm like, I've can only see my eyelashes. You know, it, it, you know. But to do that eight, nine, maybe 10 hours a day with micro assembly requires not, not, I think it's, it's.

It's a mindset, you know, it is a willingness to work in an environment where you are gonna have your head down, your neck down and you are looking through a different lens. So with that, what what we've traditionally been doing, a hiring approach had been to. Buy not, not necessarily build, I'm gonna say buy, you know, buy the build is a really important notion for me.

'cause I think the best strategy is where you, you try and move towards more of a build and buy. Not a buy and build. But, and what I mean by that is, you know, what we were doing before was working with our obvious medical tech competitors, whether that be it's dry chorus, boss of Scientific. And so we try and steal their talent the same way they're trying to steal our talent.

But. Of, of what we really looking for is a deep level of accuracy and detail in, in utilizing instruments under a microscopic lens. So we, we thought to ourselves that, Hey, you know what, what else is possible? So we, we've looked at how can we look at different markets? So engrave us, seems seamstresses, I would say.

I know there's a gender element to that, but what I would call a seamstress or a watchmaker nail tech and a nail tech salon. These are individuals that are working to a similar level of detail and often working with microscopic and tools. But how can we. Work and learn from them to, to hire.

But, but then also I think as part of it, part of the experience is bringing talent in as well. I think that's been an important part is, is explaining to talent. This is the environment. So before we. We show people the environment and we, we let them have the opportunity to, to use these instruments to, to look at that.

You know, what is a very studious assembly environment? It's a little bit different to traditional assembly when I think of caterpillar, which is heavy machinery, very loud beeps everywhere, and clanks of metal and iron. It's, it's air tools, power tools. It's very different to when you go to a Medtronic assembly section.

It's, it's quiet and people are very studious and so it's a very different environment, you know, as well. So I think it's one, one of them is, so to answer the question with a bit more gravity, it, it's to look at what. What other sectors could we look at to drive more awareness of what skills could we bring in?

and with that, you know, that that's, that's starts has some good results. It's not, it's not took lit fire just yet 'cause we're just really started with our hiring, but we're exploring. I think the, the important thing here is. And the great thing is, you know, people, like, there's a guy called Ken Vers, who's our SVP of Global Manufacturing.

He's super supportive as a customer to ultimately he wants results, quality and who and how that they got to where they got experience is, is less of an issue for him. And I, I really love that because, and early conversation we have had is people often think their industry or a sex or a certain genre of brands and that that can really limit.

Diversity in so many ways. And so I'm, I'm excited to work here where actually a lot of our hiring leaders are a bit more open-minded about what's possible when we, we do things a bit different.

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: so, so refreshing and, and you know, I wanna come back to that in a second, but I did, I did appreciate what you're saying that. You know, this idea of moving beyond sort of traditional, you know, places that we might look for people, like direct competitors and, and really say, you know, basing it on what is the skill, what are the competencies, what are the, you know, the personalities that would likely do well and bringing them in to see the environment so that they can visualize themselves in it each day is key. I did that 25 something years ago within a call center environment, brought people, but learned from experience after we had people quit or early and so on, it was like, okay.

We need people to see what it's like to be tethered to a phone, you know, for eight hours. Right. And what, what that actually means and looks like and feels like. And Disney does that. They're a pioneer of it. It turns out. Now on the, the piece around, you know, hiring managers in this vp, you talked about being actually open to looking outside the industry even that is more rare.

And you mentioned to me when we met that you had, back when you were in CPG consumer packaged goods, like, you know, you'd often get these hiring managers saying, oh, I don't wanna talk to this person. They don't have CPG. How did you manage that? Because for listeners, I'm sure there's lots of us that, that have gotten that same sort of objection over the years, and what's your tip around that?

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: I, I had that when I first, I, when I took what I call like an Apex role in CPG at SC Johnson. There's a bit of surprise from people at that company, but also beyond in the industry, like vendors that were supporting us, you know, the exact search firms that, oh, hey, hi, this guy from the uk, you know, he is, he is more automotive manufacturing than, and now I've worked to Amazon as well than CPG. So on a personal level how I handled myself was, was to demonstrate capability. You know, it's, it's cred, credibility. I think there are certain subjects and HR is one of them. Where it, the con the industry is really the context, I think the apparatus. That you provide, whether you're in TM or L and D or LD or TA, is you understand people and you understand the processes and structure, the design, the, the architecture that go into create a great solution.

And I think that that's where, whether I'm in MedTech or CPG or automotive or you know, I've never been in pharma or finance, but if I ever go into that field or retail. People we're in people business. So I think that that's the fundamental for HR people is to have, have confidence in conviction and in their credibility.

So there's a real belief in a very tad lasso moment there. But there's a, you know,

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: Mm.

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: And I think when it comes to hiring managers and business leaders, it comes up a lot. I think there's a, there's a safety and, and feeling a confidence if we're gonna hire from the same sector in that they will get it.

You know, Inver commas, they get it. They understand, and I had this at Caterpillar. I, I had this in CPG and I, I, I hear it every now and then here in MedTech as well. And I think for certain skill categories, certain roles, I think understanding the regulation, for example, landscape, it, it would perhaps make more sense to, to, to buy, not build, but in a lot of cases when you.

Analyze the role from a lens of skills and tasks. And I think this is interesting. We're in a world, and I speak quite regularly to a lady called Shavonne Savage, who is the owner of a company called Reic, actually. And I speak to her quite a lot about this, this topic because we're in a world where AI is coming in and we need to start scrutinizing jobs for a different perspective in that, hey, you know what, what can AI do for us?

How can that help us? So. What I've done over the course of time is actually really, you know, before AI actually is like this, work backwards on what, what you want and re-engineer it, you know, almost disassemble the role. And then you start to break down some of those core expectations that may have started, which is that, hey, we need somebody from X or Y.

You don't, you probably might need a consultant for three months, but you actually don't need an employee. You need a leader that's used to transformation, you know, and it, so it's a different mindset. So I think that's when with the great aids, you know, going back to that, that I want to build the capability and the recruiter to have those slightly abrasive conversations with a hiring manager whilst also concurrently training to some degree, but more a case of educating enlightening managers to think a bit more.

Dynamically about what what's possible. And I think when, as we progress through in that journey that kind of, those, those two roads will meet, I think that'll be a thing of beauty. And that, that's where I get my kicks in ta is the, the harmony of, you know, architecture, the building coming together.

It's, it's, it's imagery in my mind, but when, when I'm, I'm an architect, I'm a TA architect, is how I see what I do.

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah. And, and you get all energized when you talk about it. You know? I noticed you just literally lit up. Right. Just even with that, that vision playing out. Well, you, we have covered. So much ground, and I really appreciate you giving us a, a, a peek behind the curtains in, into what you're doing and how you're thinking about it.

I'm just wondering, you know, like, as we prepare to sign off, what would you say is, you know, for somebody coming into the talent acquisition world, not agency side, but in an organization for the first time and, and you know, maybe becoming a leader of TA for the first time, what would your biggest piece of advice be?

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: I actually, it's quite simple. One is. Authenticity, be yourself. I really, it, it's, what I see a lot is certainly with people that are growing in their careers and they're often younger in, in a, in their age. Age. And they might be trying to be someone else they, that they've seen and that might be in life a friend or it might be a colleague, coworker or it might be something they've seen online that they think there need to be a certain way to achieve a certain thing and.

My advice is to understand clarity. What's the, what's the result required, and to approach that with yourself, your, your full self, put your full self into it, your values, your work ethic, and your vulnerabilities as well. But I think that that authenticity is just one of the most important things to, to have, I think when. That is not the case. It can create distress, a loss of credibility. So I think starting from a place of be you be, you know, and, and, and elements of composure as well, you know, calmness. So I, I think a lot, a lot of feedback I've had in my life is, is a leader is you create calm, composure, soothing. I've had these weird words author in my life and.

I must admit that I think when you create that environment for yourself, that self-control, you know that it starts with yourself. I think that that helps create clarity in what needs to be done as well. So I think I'd actually add clarity and authenticity. So clarity and

Mark Smith_ GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Clarity. Okay. Yeah. And I really I wanna thank you for the, it starts with yourself because as a coach, you know, and the work that I do, that, that really resonates. I think that's once people, I. Leaders in particular grasp that starts with me, right? What, you know, how, how do I learn to navigate this and be me?

And then that kind of sets the stage and helps model it for others. So. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. This has been a, a really, really fun conversation. I've, I really appreciate being here.

Mark Smith_GMT20240620-191413_Recording_separate2: Thank you for Lisa.