Iterating Employee Experience with Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen

“We always have to be going back and looking at what are we doing? Is it working? Why or why not?
-Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen

 Do you have an approach for ensuring a continuous feedback loop when it comes to employee experience? How do you and your HR team navigate adapting to business needs?    In today’s episode, my guest and I delve into the importance of designing intentional employee experiences, the importance of iteration, and adapting to the ever-changing needs of the business. 

My guest is Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen. As a former educator, project manager and operations specialist, Sarah-Jayne joined Prodigy 7 years ago to build a People team. She has had the privilege of helping shape a unique culture that has helped the company succeed and grow (even through the ups and downs). Prodigy has grown from 20 to 300 employees in the last 7 years. With a highly aspirational mission “to help every student in the world to love learning,” having a high performing team is essential to achieving that mission and Sarah-Jayne has been building a team that is well positioned and excited to enable that. 

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

• How intentional design of your employee experience can drive engagement
• Examples of how cross-functional collaboration can break down silos
• Insight into the evolution of a performance management approach from high empathy and low effectiveness to a balance of the two

Links

• Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-jayne-lehtinen-051702a1 

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Transcript

Do you have an approach for ensuring a continuous feedback loop when it comes to employee experience? How do you and your HR team navigate adapting to business needs? In today's episode, my guest and I delve into the importance of designing intentional employee experiences, the importance of iteration and adapting to the ever-changing needs of the business.

My guest is Sarah Jane, Lieutenant. As a former educator, project manager and operation specialist, Sarah Jane joined Prodigy seven years ago to build a people team. She's had the privilege of helping shape a unique culture that has helped the company succeed and grow even through ups and downs. In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you'll discover how intentional design of your employee experience can drive engagement.

Examples of how cross-functional collaboration can break down silos and insight into the evolution of a performance management approach, from high empathy and low effectiveness to a balance of the two. Thank you for listening. 

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truth. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I am joined by Sarah Jane Latin. Sarah Jain is the Chief People Officer at Prodigy Education. Welcome to the show, Sarah Jane.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: Thank you. It's great to be here.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: So let's kick off by having you share a bit about your career journey and what led you to Prodigy.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: Yeah, so I started out my career as an, as an educator. I was a teacher in elementary school, and even though that was so long ago, it's such an important piece of what brought me to Prodigy because even though I left the world of education and moved into business and fell in love with business and, and people, and there's a lot of synergies to what we do as, as a teacher.

And as a people practitioner in the workplace. But through my business experiences, right before I came to Prodigy, I was looking for that, that intentional next move. And when I found Prodigy, it seemed like such a beautiful, convergence of what I loved about being in the business world, but education because even though I've left the classroom and that's not where I'm meant to be the mission and what teachers do and what education provides for us as people in society is still really important and very near and dear to my heart.

And so coming to Prodigy almost eight years ago now has been a really neat experience.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: So interesting. So you and I both share the, share a couple of facts already. So we're both Canadian even though you reside in the states now, and both former school teachers. So it's kind of neat. So tell me about in between leaving teaching and hitting Prodigy. So what got you kind of into this field of, of HR and talent?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: Yeah, so the first jump was I was moving from the US to Canada and I had to get my credentials canadianized. So I took a, a contract position while I did that. At an aerospace engineering company, and they were really small, so you had to wear lots of hats. And we did not have in-house hr. And so, my team was a very diverse team.

And, and I start, while I started in a contract role, I quickly moved up into supervisor, into manager, and then I started having different departments reporting in. But I had to learn how to manage the, the HR side of it. That work, I started to learn my own personal strengths and what got me really excited about work.

After that I went to another company out in Prince Edward Island and it was a PEI Bio Alliance, but they also shared an office with the Food Island Partnership. And at that company I got to see. What really great culture meant and how people came together to do really great work and managing projects at large scale hope, hosting global conferences.

And so through those two very different experiences, I just really started to see what I loved. And so, even though I came back to Ontario and I did some other work when I found Prodigy, it was about bringing all the things that I loved about those individual roles. bringing it into the workplace.

And when I started at Prodigy, and even today, I also have an operational component to my role. And so, it is my team. We deal with all the physical workspace as well, the leasing and the operations and renovating the space. And so like I've, I've kind of kept that operational part. But we have a, a large people part and that's the part that gets me really excited and I can see the synergy to having that operational.

Stand people together since our workspace is so important to our culture and community.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: It's funny 'cause I, I run into more people than you would think in our space that own facilities as well as hr or people. Yeah, it's, it's. It's more commonly put together than, than I would've thought at the outset, but that's interesting that you bring that up. By the way, I'm very jealous that you got to work in PEI.

You lived there, I take it while you were working for them.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: Yeah,

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Oh, so beautiful there. Oh my God.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: It is, it is beautiful. Now, I happen to be there in the year where we had record snowfall. So when you're, when you're used to the GTA of getting, you know, a few inches here and there we, I think we had like, it was like 14 feet, something around that, like the houses were buried. It was wild. So it was definitely an experience to remember.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Oh yeah. It's like I have, I have family in New Brunswick and in eastern Quebec and yeah, they get all the snow GTA for listeners outside Canada or Toronto area. It's the greater Toronto area. So Sarah Jane's from here originally, so yeah. Yeah, we we don't get very much anymore. This winter's been particularly dry.

Yeah. Yeah. It's not like when I was a kid, for sure. So, okay, so you, you've been at, at Prodigy for about eight years. You, you bring this really unique background and perspective. Tell me a little bit about Prodigy itself. What do you focus on as a company?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: Yeah, so as a company, we are in the education technology space, ed tech for short, where we have two products currently in the market. Our flagship product is our Prodigy math game, and then our newer product is Prodigy English. And what these are is these are highly engaging games that children love to play, but they are education aligned.

They're curriculum aligned. So you plug in the curriculum, your grade, and you can be answering. Really important questions that are aligned with the teacher's curriculum, but you're having a really great time and don't even realize you're learning. And so these products have been out there. I mean, we've been around now for 12 years and so they've been out there in the market and, and kids love them.

And that's the feedback that we get is they're really fun to play. And so seeing children speaking the words of our mission, which is to help every student in the world love learning, is just really exciting.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: So is that something where you're selling to consumers or selling into schools and school boards

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: We are direct to customers, so we're selling to consumers. Teachers are some of our biggest advocates. And so we sell directly. I think what's unique though about our business model is that we give all the education content away for free. And so you can play the game and you can get the education content, but you pay for all the fun stuff that's.

So you, when you upgrade to a membership, there's a lot more pets and stuff that you can collect, and that's available to you as a member.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Oh, that's really, yeah, that is an interesting model. Okay. Fascinating. I love hearing about this stuff. All right, well, so let's, let's dig into the nuts and bolts around what you and your team do on the people side of things at Prodigy, because I know that one area you're partic particularly passionate about is employee experience.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: Yeah, so my team is divided up into four major categories, which is talent acquisition, and then the HR people partner side, total rewards, and then the workplace experience. And so that is very much a. Around our physical space, but also about community building and just bringing people together for most often fun, fun times or learning times.

And so those are the four major categories that we're divided up into. And so we support across the entire employee journey, everything that's people related.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Okay. So, you know something that when you and I first met, we got to chatting about was this concept of being very intentional about designing the employee experience. And I know that you've been through a. Bunch of sort of twists and turns in your journey since joining Prodigy. I mean, there's pre Covid, there's during Covid, there's post covid, you know, in terms of growth and, and well, you know, as you go along needing to adjust.

So how have you kind of brought that, philosophy of needing to design and be intentional about employee experience to bear through all this change?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: Yeah, I think that design piece is, is really critical because we're ever changing and so we always have to be going back and looking at what are we doing? Is it working? Why or why not? And so when we started out at first, it was around kind of mapping that journey. So getting like the diagram of like what are the different stages and milestones that.

Encompass in this employee journey from the time a candidate first interacts with us until an employee leaves and doesn't necessarily leave forever, because then there's the alumni piece where they can always come back, which I think is a really neat and exciting part of that employee journey that we don't often talk about.

But then it was about measuring some of these different milestones, looking at what the. Employees feel about these different milestones, how they feel, what they think is working, what's not working, and then looking at the processes that we have and identifying the gaps. And with all of the ebbs and flows of our world over the last few years, we have to keep going back to that and saying, you know, is this working?

And so. What that has done is helped us to pivot how we approach these different milestones and processes based on the effectiveness or the sentiments from our people. So it's very, it's more qualitative than necessarily strictly quantitative, but it is a very data informed approach. To how we prioritize the work that we do.

And so taking just a single milestone and seeing that evolution over time, like onboarding when we were hiring 125 people in one quarter back in 2021 versus maybe only onboarding five to 10 people in a quarter, that onboarding experience is very different. And so reacting to not just what's happening with the business and the business needs, but also the employees that are coming in and what we think they need.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Absolutely. So how, you know, it is interesting, right? How it's such an evolving state and we need to be very agile. I appreciated what you were saying about we need to keep going back and reassessing like, okay, so now in terms of how we're structured, how we're serving, I. Our, our, our customer base effectively, is it working still, right?

Given that other parts of the context have changed, have shifted business needs, et cetera. So I'm just wondering how your organizational structure has changed over time to, to kind of, you know, adjust to the like 125 people coming in in one quarter versus 10 or whatever it was.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Yeah, the organizational structure shifted quite a bit. And even when we, when we did the first sort of like reset or like wind down, when we started, there were certain products we had in the market that weren't working. And so when we did our first sort of reset, we made certain changes, but then.

What we found is we were still operating like a big company in a much smaller world. And so that was where it really highlighted for us the need to like, keep looking at this, keep optimizing and so it's been, it's been exciting to see how we. Removed and we changed, we flattened the org at one point, but then now we go back and we're like, but we have still to have too many specialists, or maybe we need more generalists here, or how, how it's distributed.

And so looking at the, how we work after we figure out what we think is the right structure really influences whether or not the how is, is working and, and. Further iterations required like processes. A big one that we found is like silos and so how do we break down the SLI silos? How do we get people collaborating and speaking more to each other?

cross-Functionally, we found we are very good at like themes. Squads or departments, but getting one department to talk to another department is much harder. And so, you know, how do we solve these problems? And then, so going through that process of like the, what we look like, how we work within that structure, and then even the where we work is a really important piece.

What pieces are best to come together on? Which ones can we do asynchronously?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Right. Okay. it's interesting 'cause it sounds like, you know, there's really you've got a good handle on what was going on across the business. So for your own team, how did you change what people were doing functionally to be able to help, you know, break down silos and that kind of thing?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: Yeah, I think the most effective strategy has been a truly embedded people partner strategy. But it's, it's funny that you mention our team because we were, when we talked about the employee experience, we were doing so much. For the business and for the employees. We actually had the moment realize where we realized some of the tools for our own team haven't advanced as much as some of the tools that we provide the business.

And so, with, with a people partner strategy, that's really helped highlight how we can best enable, but having people, partners. Who are supporting dedicated client groups, bringing the people partners together, bringing the people, partners with the talent acquisition as, as well, those intentional touch points so that we're talking about what's happening within specific teams and how that can translate into hiring and making sure that we're, you know, there's, yes, there's skills, but there's also just a dynamic.

How do we bring the. Personality into the mix to, to really bring that team together. And so I think that's been helpful from an internal perspective and our people partners have been able to like surface a lot of really great insights.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: The embedded people partner, I'm a, a, a fan of that, having actually functioned in that role quite a few years ago now. But it, you know, really I think goes a long way to ensuring that the different groups have, you know, very clear. Support, single point of contact and you know, as long as there's really great synergy within the larger people team, right?

Like a really great connection between the business partners and the centers of excellence and that kind of thing, right? So that there's a flow of information and insights and, and no, no blocks and no, you know, sort of stepping on each other's toes issues. 'cause I do see that come up a lot.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: Yeah, that, and that's been an interesting one. We've, we've had more centers of excellence in the past. Right now we only have the one, which is like the total rewards and talent acquisition, depending on how you view that. And so like how do we, how do we even work within that and making sure that the right information is being provided.

And so that's where. Building tools internally has been an interesting, an interesting process as well, so that our people, when they are supporting the business, they feel equipped to do that. But then bringing them back and having those conversations has been really helpful too. So when there's really unique projects going on with one client group, because maybe, you know, they.

They're, they're smaller. Maybe they've got a few people who are just really passionate. You can share those learnings and those artifacts with other areas of the business. That's how we've been able to push out role descriptions a lot faster than I think maybe others have at least from what I've heard is.

Because you get the template, you get the what good looks like, and you get one part of the business who wants to get the work done to, you know, mapping role descriptions for every single role, how it lines up with the compensation structure and getting that out in the world and having conversations around it.

So it makes it easier to roll that out in another area of the business when they see what it's, how it's working, and how it's helping.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Right. Get those early adopters in really. Helps with the whole change management and moving people towards that tipping point. I love it. Well, so what has been, you know, your biggest learning would you say as you've kind of gone through these twists and turns in the journey?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: I think it's like let the business drive it and then set the business up for success in driving it. Having the business one. Identifying solutions for the problems helps them buy in from day one, and then supporting them in building it out. The solution helps with the excitement and the passion and the communication, and then the rollout and the experimentation, and you know, the iteration and the feedback.

I mean, every step of the process goes so much easier when you have that. Buy-in from the business. And I think a lot of that stems to going back to your, your employee experience survey. You know, that engagement survey where you measure at different points of the journey and you can have the business interpret the results, see the results.

And so I think, I think that's been the biggest lesson learned. And then at every step. Encouraging them to roll it out in the most simple form and getting that feedback. Because even the business sometimes likes to make things more complex than it needs to be. And the more complexity you add, the harder it is to maintain, the harder it is to roll it out.

And so just getting the most simple version out so that you have this living, breathing artifact and just building that habit of using it and updating it, I think has been the biggest lesson learned.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Yeah, so, so, avoiding maintenance, hell, that's what I always called it. Right. Keeping things simple and, Working with what you've got. It sounds like just keeping it current. Iterating, iterating. I, I always say embrace the iteration because that's how you're gonna get to the best version.

Right? And then at the same time, expect that things are going to evolve and shift and you're gonna need to, to keep, as you've said, circling back, okay, is this still working for us? If not, what needs to shift? Right? And sometimes you do need to burn it down and start afresh, and yet that's probably less often than we might assume.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I think that iteration too, when you're iterating, you're working with what you have, therefore you're working more efficiently as opposed to constantly going back to the drawing board and designing from scratch, which takes a lot of time and not everybody's. Gifted at that.

And so it can be really difficult to push things forward when you feel like you're constantly building from scratch. And so iterating on what is working, what is successful is, is so much easier.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, that brings me to, to be thinking about like, what's an example of when something's, you know, gone off the rails and you've found that there's been a need to change up you know, a very core process.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: I think performance management performance assessment, like performance just as a whole is, is really the biggest area. When Covid hit, we wanted to be very empathetic with our people. People were overwhelmed. They were balancing educating children at home not having all the support tools that we typically have available to us.

And so there was just a lot. And so we took what was previously a very rigorous process and we started stripping a lot of the elements back. And so, you know, in one year. We kept the same cadence doing a semi-annual, but we did performance reflection. So no scoring, no calibration, but just focusing on those very reflective questions.

And then the, what's next? How are you gonna move forward? And then the following year we iterated on that and did quarterly performance check-ins. and what we saw was there was definitely good conversation happening, but by removing so much of the rigor around the process, it was a lot more, everybody's doing great, and we didn't have the same of like.

We're actually not hitting the bar. We're not hitting these goals, we're not doing this. So we wanted to celebrate every little thing, which is good. And I certainly do not want to put down celebration or recognition, but we weren't talking about, but how do we get better? How do we continue to. Grow. And so that was lost.

And so 2023 for us became a year of getting back on track with performance and not just for the sake of like more effective, you know, assessments, but. Better coaching, better feedback, and that that continuous feedback cycle that we want. How are we taking these performance touchpoint and doing the work back to, you know, monthly, weekly, daily.

Like, what are those habits that we need to have so that we have ongoing feedback around what's working and not just about the how behaviors of like communicates effectively or team building. But the business side of things too. Are we hitting our business objectives? Why, what's going on? And trying to keep a good balance of looking at the business needs as well as the other soft skills, and how do they come together into a really cohesive process so that we can make sure that we're leveling up as a team.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Interesting. I, I think this is so fascinating and I appreciate you sharing this example. I'm not sure that this is really, that anything's gone off the rails though, I gotta say. It sounds like it was very much you and your team and the organization being responsive to what was going on for employees, right.

And what, what they need and what the business needed at the time. And it's, it's another great example actually of iterating as, as you got new information, as and as context. Changed around you, you know what I mean? So, so it's like, you know, it was rigorous. Then you sort of took the foot off the gas pedal a bit around that rigor.

Because that made sense. At the time. It was about retention. It was about survival. Let's get through this and then, you know, starting to put some of that back in. But it sounds like there's, there's nuance now. So it's, it, are you still doing quarterly conversations, but just it's a little more grounded around the business results and, and, and.

Getting better.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: So we're doing, we're doing formal assessments, semi-annually. So we do a midyear and we do a end of year. We do, we do. Absolutely recommend and promote weekly check-ins monthly templates, which are more driven at like two-way feedback, like not just about, you know, giving feedback to maybe your team member, your direct report, but how do you create that safe space to solicit feedback for yourself as a manager.

And so we, we definitely push for those. And then we check in more formally two times a year.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Okay, so, so it's interesting. So what, so with the rigorous process that was in place before Covid, before you relaxed some of the, that rigor, what, what, what did. That look like. What was the cadence for that particular

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: We were doing it semi-annually, but we were also doing like merit increases for compensation, semi-annually, and promotion cycles. We're, we're ad hoc and all over the bait, all over the place. And so just bringing it all together into like, actually we do a merit cycle once a year at the annual. We do still do promotion cycles, both after both performance reviews and then doing that on a semi-annual cadence.

But we also do calibration. We did calibration before we started relaxing, and now we've brought back calibration as well. Calibration not just to talk about the scores. The expectations and the definition of what good looks like. Calibration has been really exciting to watch as managers have come together to debate the definition of good for a particular role.

And that's what I, what has also helped us to iterate on how we think about our role expectations, our role descriptions, how careers are developing. We've identified where like two roles that had different seniority. We saw a lot of overlap because the, the, the requirements and the expectations weren't unique enough, so we ended up collapsing them into the same role.

And so, you know, just making those changes along the way. Calibration has really identified some great opportunities for further improvement.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Oh such a great reminder, Sarah Jane, because I think that that is one process that can get pushed to the wayside too, right? Because when I just see every, pretty much every client, every podcast, guest, you know, everybody, I, I network constantly, so I'm talking to a lot of people in the course of a, a week or a month, I find like.

You know, it's a, it's very common that, you know, people are so strapped for time that it's, you know, hard to get people to commit to even get into a room to get these managers into a room, for instance, to do that kind of calibration or talent review. So, a little bit separate from succession planning, but looking at performance as a whole within the performance enablement cycle.

So, yeah, so it's refreshing to hear that you've got that. In place. 'cause it, it is all about opportunity, right? It gives you new eyes on, on talent and what's going on and what are the needs, what's working, what's not.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: Yeah. And when you do cross-functional calibration as well, you get a perspective of like, do we have the, the role acting as we actually need it for everybody involved in the process. That was a really great big eye-opener as well for us last year was when we brought together craft leaders from different specializations who work on these cross-functional squads, and we.

Reviewing, like how they're working together, what's great, what's not, and, and it was, it was so enlightening to see the conversation and honestly, my team. Just had to facilitate and, and bring up the right questions to get them talking and them working through it. And so watching the business just come to these like solutions and, and identifying, well, actually maybe there's somebody here who's a star that we're under investing in.

That, and bringing that up and, and bringing that to light is, is really exciting to see.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Well enlightening, like you say, and it sounds like a good, you know, the, a good avenue to breaking down silos, right, cross-functional insights and collaboration and connection really, really goes a long way. Fascinating. So, okay, so let, we're nearing the end of our time together, so let's kind of pull it together and wrap it with a bow.

So, if you were to say, you know, what's the most important thing to, to remember when it comes to not just performance management, but employee experience over overall for leaders like yourself? Like what, what is your biggest piece of advice?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: I think it would be let it go early and then iterate. That's. That I think gives you that feedback loop, just like product delivery. We try to get that, you know, MVP out in the market so we can see how it lands with users. It's the same thing with our people processes. We need to get them out so that we can see how it's landing and get that feedback and that process of iteration is what one, it's exciting and it brings us together, but it makes us better as a team.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: Love this. Get it, let it go early and then iterate. It's kind of like in some entrepreneurial circles, they talk about fail fast. Right, which is, it has a bit of a negative connotation there. But the idea is, you know, let's, and, and Brene Brown calls it, you know, the SFD shitty first draft. Just, just get it out there in some form and be very honest about, this is like early days.

This is, you know, prehistoric here. And so now we're gonna, we're gonna build on it. This is the power of a, of a pilot and experimentation and helping people embrace that. So beautiful, beautiful example. Thank you so much for joining me. This has been just such a interesting conversation and I appreciate you sharing, you know, some actual insight into what your team's been doing.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate2: And thank you for having me. This was a great conversation to be a part of.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen GMT20240222-181804_Recording_separate1: My pleasure.