Working WITH Short Employee Tenure with Jamie Bruno

“We’d love to hire someone and have them stay 6-8 years, but when it’s not the reality anymore, then shifting that paradigm and mental model [is important.]
-Jamie Bruno

The job market is constantly in flux. Sometimes it’s an employer’s market, sometimes a candidate’s market, sometimes it’s balanced.   One trend that is here to stay is the overall decrease in employee tenure. The 25-year gold watch is no longer a norm, it is an exception.  Today’s guest shares his view that we need to work with the reality of shorter tenures, vs. be frustrated by them. 

My guest is Jamie Bruno. Jamie joined Ontario Tech University in 2017 and is currently Vice President, People and Transformation. Jamie is responsible for the full suite of labour relations and human resources functions, including transformative initiatives such as future-of-work modelling, improved digitization and access to information to enhance employee engagement, and optimizing features of the employee life cycle.

Jamie has spent nearly 20 years in both human resources and labour relations across the broader public sector, serving as Chief Human Resources Officer at North York General Hospital, where he launched the hospital’s first People Strategy, and leading strategic HR business operations at both Treasury Board Secretariat and the Ministry of Government Services in the Ontario Public Service.

Jamie completed his undergraduate degree at the University of Toronto, and earned both his MBA and MIR (Master of Industrial Relations) degrees from Queen’s University.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

• A window into the management side of a large and growing university  
• An example of a flexible work program that can help organizations go beyond existing geographic boundaries
• Insight into how to reframe the fact that employees don’t necessarily stay in the same company for a long time

Links

• Jamie Bruno on Linkedin

Looking for a Team Coach or dynamic Keynote Speaker/Facilitator?

Book a call with me to explore how we might partner (serious inquiries only please):

https://calendly.com/lisa-mitchell-greenapple/clarity-call

Share the Show

Like what you’ve heard? Pretty please with an apple on top - kindly leave me a 5* review so that others can find the show and elevate their impact too! Here are the simple instructions:

• Launch Apple's Podcast app on your iPhone or iPad.
• Tap the Search icon (on the botton) and search for the show name.
• Tap the show's cover art.
• On the podcast page, tap the Reviews tab.
• Tap "Write a Review" at the bottom of this page.

Follow me

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-mitchell-acc-ctdp-7437636/

Instagram: @greenappleconsulting

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/greenappleconsulting.ca

Transcript

LM Ep 124

 [00:00:00] The job market is constantly in flux. Sometimes it's an employer's market, sometimes a candidate's market, and sometimes it's balanced. One trend that's here to stay is the overall decrease in employee tenure. [00:01:00] The 25 year Gold Watch is no longer a norm. It's an exception. Today's guest shares his view that we need to work with the re reality of shorter tenures versus be frustrated by them.

My guest is Jamie Bruno. Jamie joined Ontario Tech University in 2017 and is currently vice president people and transformation. Jamie has spent nearly 20 years in both HR and labor relations across the broader public sector, including serving as A-C-H-R-O at North York General Hospital, where he launched the hospital's first people strategy.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you'll discover a window into the management side of a large and growing university. An example of a flexible work program that can help organizations go beyond existing geographic boundaries and insight into how to reframe the fact that employees don't necessarily stay in the same company for a long time.

Thanks for listening.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate1: Hello and welcome back to Talent Management [00:02:00] Truth. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today my guest is Jamie Bruno. Jamie is the Vice President of People and Transformation at Ontario Tech University. Welcome to the show, Jamie. So let's begin, as we always do, by having you share with listeners a little bit about who you are and and your career path.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate2: Sure. So I'm 20 years in the, in the human resource, talent management and labor relations. I've been the vice president of, of people and transformation at Ontario Tech for nearly seven years now. Work with an incredible group of people and have accountability for, what most people would understand to be the full suite of human resource and, and talent management accountabilities. Prior to that, I was the Chief Human Resource Officer at North York General Hospital for three years and then worked in government so the, the proper public sector in Ontario, working in a range [00:03:00] of human resource and labor relations related activities including executive recruitment. For a year, so responsible for the talent acquisition and talent sourcing. Arm of the deputy minister and assistant Deputy minister hires.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate1: Okay, so lots of depth around the talent acquisition piece, and then currently you've got the full suite portfolio. What do you have a sweet spot? Like what's your, what's, you know, if you're really gonna pick one area, one discipline within hr, what is it?

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate2: I, I probably would've told you leading into the pandemic that it was certainly the, the labor relations, the collective bargaining contract negotiation side. But I think over the past three and a half, almost four years now, I. It really is that strategic lens and vision that I'm fortunate to play a role in as it comes to helping business units in our university achieve their goals through the talent side of [00:04:00] things. The pandemic and. The geopolitical situations that have come about over the past several years has challenged the market and it's certainly challenged our organization and our sector. So the, not only the opportunity, but the need to be more strategic and dynamic with business unit leaders and faculty leaders. To support the, the build and the growth. I think it's anchored in the talent side of things. So, so many different ways you can go about it. There's so many creative opportunities and as we like to put it, evidence-based, based ways of, of moving forward and supporting the business. And that has been a really unique challenge, but an exciting thing for me and my team.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate1: Excellent. Okay. So, you know, I wanna dig into more specific stuff around what you're, what you're doing with your team. Maybe you could highlight a little bit of. You know, some information about Ontario Tech U.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate2: Yeah, absolutely. So we are celebrating our 20th [00:05:00] anniversary this year. A big milestone for us. And over the past three years we have set new milestones and records in Ontario for straight from high school applications. Our brand. Is growing. We're certainly making an impact in the provincial post-secondary space.

We certainly have evidence of making imprints on the national stage as well. So it's an exciting time to be part of a, a very nimble but growing rapidly growing university. We have really two campuses. We're, we're located in Oshawa, Ontario, so we have a presence on the what's called the North campus in the northern end of Oshawa.

And then we were situated in a number of different buildings and have a presence in downtown Oshawa. We have 11,000 students. At our university we're aiming to hit 18,000 by 2030. We offer academic program across a host of disciplines, despite the name [00:06:00] Ontario Tech. 

So, we are a very diverse and. Really a community based university in the sense that there, there is that intimate feel still between the student base, the faculty and the staff. Several who have been here since its inception. So really important connection with a number of staff that have seen from shovel shoveling the ground to where we

are now. Being part of that and having their fingerprints all over the growth of our university.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate1: And so for listeners who aren't in Canada as Jamie and I are, it Oshawa is a city that's about an hour out of downtown Toronto to the east. So I have traveled through it mostly on my way to Quebec to see family and and so on. But you know, it's really interesting to hear more about Ontario Tech University 'cause my, my son is 17 and so we're at the stage where he's, he's got early acceptances to three schools.

So we're, we're waiting to see what he's gonna choose and, and [00:07:00] then we can start preparing for September. It's an exciting time, but. Bravo. Congratulations on the 20 year anniversary and all of the great work that you're doing. Sounds awesome. So let's kind of dig more now into how you support the university.

You were talking about the strategic lens and helping various departments and so on, being more strategic and and competitive in the marketplace. What, you know, tell us a bit about your team and about some of the core projects that you have going.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate2: Sure. We have, we have a small but mighty team, and so. Soon after I joined Ontario Tech my undertook a bit of a structural redesign. So again, in line with, with sort of the facets, different facets of, of talent management. And so we moved from a generalist to a specialist model really focusing in on, on either redefining rules for existing staff or bringing new talent on board with specialty. In particular areas and not [00:08:00] extended in particular to the professional development and to the recruitment side of the business. So rather than working as part of a sort of a jack of all trades, we wanted to bring in a deeper level of expertise in those areas. And then what that has sort of manifested itself into is on the professional development side.

Of training opportunities that. Certainly we have the programming that will build particular skills, either technical skills or competency-based skills. But we're, we're proud of some of the programs that are designed have been designed and continue to iterate for. Those that are exploring opportunities to move from subject matter or indivi, subject matter expert or individual contributor to management, and then also for those that are in management now. Both newcomers into that space and [00:09:00] also those that are transitioning from manager to director to assistant vice president. So with that comes some vulnerabilities and we're really pleased with the way that given our size and capacity, we've been able to respond with programming that targets those, those audiences. What we're doing on the recruitment space in terms of building our, our team is looking at different ways to access platforms perhaps that have not been available to Ontario Tech or not access to Ontario Tech in the past. You had mentioned, Lisa, about the program that we launched a couple years ago, our flexible work program. And what that has done for us is given staff and management the flexibility to use their discretion on where people work. Certainly with some boundaries and limitations, but we've been able to see the benefits directly from [00:10:00] staff feedback on the success of that program. But I would say to extend it a bit further. We've been able to track the location of applicants and even successful hires into areas of the province that we generally weren't able to reach pre pandemic. And the flex work program then allows us to tap into talent pools that go beyond geographic boundaries. And for a school of our size with, for a school of. That has its growth projections tied in increasing our student population significantly over six years. We do need to deepen those talent pools and go beyond, like I said geographic areas that we're traditionally where we would pull talent from.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate1: Okay. So these would be people say from another market I don't know how far out, like an hour plus away periphery. And, but, so they're working from home some of the time and they [00:11:00] do have to come on site or they, or there's some roles that are fully remote. I.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate2: Yeah, so, so we don't have fully remote roles. We have sort of a minimum of one day on campus right now on the administrative side. So this is not on the academic side. Exclusively on the administrative side, but it's a decentralized model. And what we do is, is we cascade the decision making to unit leaders.

And we thought that that was important because what better way to show trust in the people that are leading our business than to have them make the decisions. On how their operation needs to be run. So some of our business units are student facing and so they provide support directly to students. Students as a customer in that perspective we have to be considerate of their needs. Do they want face to face? Are they comfortable with remote engagement for a variety of student services? So allowing managers and leaders in those specific business units to make those decision. [00:12:00] Allows them to customize the way they run their business to the success of the university in response to the, the sort of one hour, the notion of the one hour in Awas.

For those that don't know, AWA is in a, in a pretty unique geographic locale, and that is that we're not too far away from Toronto. But the traffic and public transportation modes make it seem like, and very well could be 90 minutes, two hours to commute depending on where you are in the city. So, even those that, that would, who would consider Ontario Tech as an option for employment if they live in Toronto. There is those sort of realities that could become barriers that we seem to have knocked down. Now Asha was in Durham region. Durham region is adjacent to both the greater Toronto area and York region. But we're seeing applicants from northern parts of Ontario, from further west [00:13:00] into Peel region.

Those are areas where from time to time you would see I would say a higher and very few applicants, and now we're seeing more of that. So, I think it's a testament to the work that our managers have done. To build that culture around a positive flexible work program. But the very content that's inherent in flex work has certainly allowed us to compete differently with some real heavy hitters in the post-secondary space in our area.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. Just, just the, I just saw an article, I think last week. It was about how it turns out Toronto has the worst traffic in all of North America. I think LA thought they had that hands down, but I, when I was there a couple years ago, I was like, this is nothing. So it does mean though that, you know, going anywhere, you know, it, it takes, it takes some time.

It's probably two hours for me from Mississauga to where you are. Right. Like it, which is crazy 'cause it's really not [00:14:00] that far geographically anyways. Okay. Now something else I wanted to pick up on that you, that you mentioned when you were talking about what your team and, and you are working on was this evolving catalog of training opportunities.

And something that I think I picked up on was this real you know, understanding of. The need for support as people transition from one level to the next. And I was wondering if you had examples of like, what kind of supports are you doing in this training? Like how do you meet that particular need?

Right? So they're moving from supervisor to manager, to manager to director, that kind of thing.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate2: It's a great question. Touch couple issues. Leaders of other organizations that have really provided some terrific experiences and advice. So as you move up the, the proverbial ladder your connection to the work. You used to do has to become a little more clouded. There is a tendency for [00:15:00] subject matter experts to move from an individual contributor role to a manager and still be tethered. The work that they either grew up in or know best, and as they progress from manager to either senior manager or director, there continues to be that link. And so there's this invisible pull almost, and. Doing that certainly has its drawbacks. And it prevents growth and learning in other areas, and certainly an attentiveness or a response to the expansion of duties and responsibilities that now sit with you. So what we try to do is as an example. Moving from manager to director, director to a VP. Your accountabilities around finance and budgeting are enhanced. And so again, naturally these are some skills or some spaces that individuals aren't either familiar with or. [00:16:00] I would say in more cases than not, they're just not comfortable with, so there is that, that important element. There is the the growing need to adjust to the generations in the workforce and what their expectations are and how to manage or communicate with different cohorts of employees that are coming through. I think where. We work in, in more of a virtual environment than we ever have. We don't see that changing. With obviously the the heavier introduction of gen ai and further digitization of workflows work processes, we're starting to see relationships change. And so that in person is giving way to a lot more virtual. So managing staff virtually is different than managing staff in person. We, we wanna be able to both explore and really land on some tools and [00:17:00] practices that respond to the realities of today and conflict management again. as you move up the ladder, it's not that you're going to experience more conflict, but or have to deal with it any more than you would at a manager level, but ultimately the decision making authority becomes more significant. The risks are more significant. You become

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate1: the accountability is much higher. 

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate2: So there needs to be that sort of recognition of the fact that your profile has changed, and with that comes a higher level of risk. A higher degree of decision making than you're used to. And we want to do our best to begin bringing in again, some tools and practices that will help individuals adjust to that transition.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate1: Yeah, I, I I think all of those things are so Im important and, you know, you pointed out some core skills that. Do or the use of these skills, the support you need for them changes as you [00:18:00] move up. Right. With the budgeting, finance, you mentioned sort of understanding the broader perspective on staffing, different generations coming in, the conflict management, all that kind of stuff.

You know, something too that I think's really, really important that I've always built into the programs that I. Developed, you know, over the years supporting the, this kind of transitions was also, you know, giving space time reflection to sort of figure out, help people figure out how do they wanna lead at that level.

Like what does it mean for them to let go of the previous level and move into this new level. It's so, you know, sort of, one book I always loved and used to recommend and still do sometimes is what got you here won't get you there by Marshall Goldsmith, right? Oldie, bad Goodie. 'cause it really paints the picture beautifully of, of how, you know, things that made you successful in a particular role or a particular level, level in the hierarchy.

May not all be appropriate or applicable. In, in your next adventure. So, you know, [00:19:00] the more you can be thoughtful and deliberate and intentional around how you wanna show up and how you wanna move forward, I think that's really critical On top of, you know, the, the more technical skills. Well, I don't know, what do you think?

That's my kind of take. Agree. It's in be. But it is about assessing potential

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate2: and I, I like the way you put it. What, what got you here won't get you where you need to be. It's just a starting point. And there's that toolkit that needs to continue to build and expand over time. And there's some tools you gotta get rid of at certain points because the role just doesn't demand it anymore.

And you need to pass that over to someone who's now reporting into you. So we couldn't agree more. Those are excellent points.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, and I, I think that it's great that you are working to support those transitions. 'cause I think sometimes they get lost in the shuffle a little bit. Right? Like, they'll be, they'll be training for. The supervisors for the managers, for the directors, the VPs, but then not about [00:20:00] that, you know, like making the move and specifically shining the light on that.

So, so that's great. So the other piece too that I wanted to really get your input on was we had talked a little bit about the overall employee life cycle and, and you know, you shared that you sort of see sometimes there's an imbalance in terms of how people how much. Emphasis they place on certain stages versus others.

Can you tell me a little bit about what you've observed and your thoughts?

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate2: Sure. And, and again, this is really isolated to our experience in in post-secondary and, and. Specific institution. But up until about six months ago, the market was different. The, the talent labor market was a little different. We saw the depth of our talent pools a lot more shallow than they had been in years prior. That certainly aligned with the data and the research around the transient of labor. Coming out of the pandemic and extending for a [00:21:00] while. A lot of information and reporting around that balance that people are isolating as a priority more than ever before. That balance between I need to work with an employer whose values align with mine where my personal life won't take a backseat. To my professional responsibilities where that advocacy and support from the employer is more tangible than before. Now we've started to see over the last six months, a bit of a spike in our our applicant pool. But what I would say to your question, Lisa, for the most part, you in, you invest a lot of your time at the front end of that employee life cycle, so that that talent acquisition talent higher portion of it.

And then there's almost this collective breadth. We've got the person in and now we will [00:22:00] let sort of nature take its course. There's sort of built in pathways within any organization to support growth, to network, but it's almost a handover and the hard work, the hard work's done. And I think what the last two years in particular has told us is that that's where the work just begins. So as much as the front end of the employee life cycle, in my opinion, was weighted a little more heavily than the other aspects, you're starting to see an equalization. That it's, it's as important and as much in an investment to secure find and secure talent as it is to onboard them, as it is to train 'em and build their. Capacity, both skills and competencies. And so we, we have to do a better job. And I suspect other organizations are finding a similar experience that most [00:23:00] employees are not sticking around for that 6, 8, 10 years anymore. And what I find interesting is that organizations I've been at always respond to market conditions. When it comes to talent and labor, and so as we talked about, the generations of work each have different interests, they have different characteristics, and so employers are sort of tripping over themselves to create that, that nexus between what we can offer and what you need as a, as a unique individual in the labor market. And so recognizing that there is this shift that employees are not likely to stick around for six, eight, or 10 years as they have. Perhaps earlier in the, in the two thousands. Well, why not take advantage of that? Not why not work with the benefits that come with having employees join your organization? And just because they may not be in their, the role they're hired for, [00:24:00] for six or eight years, I think what it, what it says very loudly is. They're looking for new experiences. They're looking for growth, they're looking for change. Why not look at creating career pathways internally? I know obviously a number of organizations, particularly private sector, hone in on apprenticeship programs and those professional pathways, and so with us we're, I think universities are a little behind in that evolution, but understand who you're getting in. Recognize, and I would say don't, don't fight back on the fact that, yeah, Lisa May come and, and may only stay for 36 months, but what can we get out of Lisa? And if it's someone that's really value add to the organization, where is it that we can now within the employee lifecycle, demonstrate to Lisa that there are opportunities elsewhere in our organization?

We'll help you get there. And that's [00:25:00] commensurate with the programming that we have to develop and curate over time.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate1: Yeah, so it, you know, it's this, this whole you bring up an important issue because if, if you, you do have a shorter term kind of workforce, people aren't hanging out for the gold watch. Certainly remember 25 years, you know, my dad's stage, he was 40 years in the same place kind of thing. Right. So, unheard of really now.

So how do you work with it? So swim with the current versus against it is what I'm hearing you say. And I really think that that's why, you know, and there's different ways to look at it, you know. You're talking about the employee life cycle and then there's the employee experience, right? So if we sort of say, how do we want people to experience the hiring process, the onboarding, and then how do we want them to experience the day-to-day, and, and how they're continuously developed and how do we want them to experience learning about other opportunities and growing their, their, their perspective of the, of the organization.

So it's, it's [00:26:00] it, you know, when you start looking at it from the employees. Lens, I think you're, you're asking better questions and then you have better better ways reveal themselves about how do you, to your point, get the most out of Lisa or Jamie, you know what I mean, while they're here. And then the other thing that came up when you were talking for me anyways, was.

if, if we're going to accept that, the reality that is that people aren't gonna stay that long, how do we maximize their potential while they're with us? And how do we get in front of knowledge transfer? How do we mitigate for, for the loss of human capital, knowledge, capital, and, and make it smoother since it's gonna happen, 

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate2: Absolutely, and and I would say there, there's, to pick up on your last point, Lisa, there. Inherently is a disruptive outcome when an employee transitions, but it certainly is less disruptive when that employee's transitioning to another role in your organization. So if it's someone that really can add value in longer term, has a pathway [00:27:00] to whether it's lateral or not you wanna keep those, those people. And what we've discovered is that. There is that natural and understandable pushback about, I'd love to hire someone and have them stay for six or eight years, but when it's not the reality anymore, then shifting that paradigm and that mental model say, okay, we may have this person for two years, perhaps sometimes less, but taking a more proactive role in understanding what it is that they have to offer. Beyond what's perhaps in their job description and then being an engaged leader. Being an engaged leader putting the corporate hat on and saying, yeah, I know Lisa May not be with me sitting at this desk in this role more than two years. There is a great opportunity for her to add value in other rules in different units, and ultimately we're playing for the same team.

So I just think that it's, [00:28:00] it's a hurdle that we haven't quite overcome. I'm sure in speaking with a number of my colleagues they've experienced and haven't been able to overcome. Overall, but I think I will go back to my point. There's, there's a history of observing organizations respond to the market, and this is just one sort of, point in time where there just seems to be a lot more resistance and there's a great way to take advantage of it. But it's not easy to figure out.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate1: No, it's not. And it, and it demands a different way of thinking a little bit, right? Like, you've gotta be innovative, you know, and, and, and so, I mean, that's. That's true. Any, anytime when you feel some natural resistance, like, oh, I wish it wasn't this way. Geez. You know, it's so annoying. 'cause we know how expensive it is to, to bring new people in and, and train and re and, you know, help them be successful.

You don't wanna have to keep repeating it. But again, if that is the reality, how do you make their, their experience and their potential of career progression within the [00:29:00] organization as possible, or, or as, as positive rather then. Maybe they will stay longer than you think, but in the meantime, you're gonna mitigate for the potential that they might turn over whether it's internal churn or external.

You know, moving on. There was something else too that, that came to mind for me here was, you know, you were talking about ship the paradigm. That's exactly what I'm referring to, right? Like, it's, it's sort of like, okay, okay, hang on here. It's the reality. So let's, let's just kinda. Just relax into it, you know, I think there's something to be said for that.

So when you think about what's ahead for Ontario Tech University and your team and your role in this, this year, we're, we're recording in January 2nd, 2024. So it's early days in the year. What's, what's ahead for you? What are you excited about?

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate2: There's a lot to be excited about. At our university, our trajectory has been very steep and very positive over the last [00:30:00] several years, but in particular the last three years we're really excited from a people side of the business. To be able to work alongside our business leaders on the scaling of our organization, that's going to require us to be more creative than we've ever been. That strategic dynamic in terms of understanding the business and where it's going has been rooted in the work that we do, but it will never be as important as in the coming months and years. There's a, a just tremendous work done on the academic and the admin side in establishing a strategic plan. And the people part of it is embedded at its core. , it creates an energy and an engagement with our team because they recognize the work that they're doing is supporting some exceptional outcomes at Ontario Tech.

So. Do we have to polish and fine tune our flex work [00:31:00] program? Absolutely. You touched on a great point. Is there an opportunity for us as we've been exploring the last few months on fully remote roles fully remote roles and positions other pilot projects connected to. Flexible work that could help support talent acquisition, again, in spaces or areas that, that we're not used to. As always, economic conditions and the economic climate play an important role. So the, the redesign on the comp side of things is always front of mind. We have. To what's happening not only in the post-secondary space, but the public sector and more broadly in the provincial economy.

So, there's a lot to do, but those bigger pieces to scale our business, I. Those are projects that we really haven't seen at Ontario Tech my team hasn't seen, and it will really be able to bring to the surface. I think some of the brilliance that fits into our, our [00:32:00] PD and our talent management roles.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I can see the, the, the enthusiasm though, coming from you. You like clearly, really. Pumped for for the year and, and the work ahead. It sounds like there's, there's nothing but opportunity here.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate2: It is an exciting time to be here.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate1: Excellent. Excellent. Well, I really wanna thank you for coming on the show and, and chatting with us and sharing a little bit about life at Ontario Tech U and some of your your thoughts and, and, and some of the great work that you're doing. Thank you very much.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate2: Thank you for having me, Lisa.

Jamie Bruno GMT20240123-203904_Recording_separate1: My pleasure. [00:33:00]