Democratizing Transformation with Suzanne Knight

“If you democratize the transformation so that there can be true ownership amongst every leader and every person…it will be more successful than if you outsource it to one team.”
-Suzanne Knight

What does transformation mean to you when it comes to organizations?  Do you ever wonder if maybe there are some transformational “secrets” you haven’t uncovered yet?   In today’s episode, my guest and I break down various examples of transformation that I know you’ll find illuminating.

My guest is Suzanne Knight. Suzanne is a global transformer, having worked with ~40 companies in 12 countries as a consultant (Deloitte) and Retail / CPG executive (Walmart Canada and Philip Morris International). Some of her most awesome projects were redesigning the structure and ways of working of a Canadian CPG company to relentless centre customer experience, building and launching a $450M air-rail link transit system, moving a Canadian airport authority from ‘command and control’ to ‘customer-centric’ culture, leading agile and digital transformation for a major Canadian retailer, and creating the talent strategy for a new industry in Saudi Arabia, merging 5 companies in 6 countries across the Caribbean and Bermuda.

In her most recent role as the Vice President of Transformation Services at Walmart Canada, Suzanne’s team delivered top priority initiatives under the company’s $3.5B strategy. Portfolio included: digital/automation/AI, process redesign, operating model change, business agility, change management, technology enablement and adoption, and project/program delivery.

Suzanne is a Certified Facilitator (MindGym) and popular speaker and workshop leader known for her authenticity and stories from the trenches of transformation.In 2023, she was selected for The Peak's Emerging Leaders List, recognizing Canadians under age 40 who are making a notable impact in their field, as well as The DMZ’s Women of the Year recognizing top female leaders in Technology.  Suzanne holds an MBA in Finance and Strategy from the Schulich School of Business and an MA in Industrial/Organizational Psychology from the University of Guelph. 

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

• Insights into what is Transformation as a discipline
• How it’s not just PMO’s job to transform an organization
• The concept of unblocking your team

Links

• Suzanne Knight on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/skknight/

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Transcript

LM Ep 108

 [00:00:00] What does transformation mean to you? When it comes to organizations? Do you ever wonder if maybe there are some transformational secrets you haven't uncovered yet? In today's episode, my guest and I break down various examples of transformation that I [00:01:00] know you'll find illuminating. My guest is Suzanne Knight.

Suzanne is a global transformer. Having worked with over 40 companies in 12 countries as a consultant and as ACPG executive. In her most recent role as VP of Transformation Services at Walmart, her team delivered top priority initiatives under the company's very large and well budgeted strategy.

I. In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you'll discover insights into what is transformation as a discipline, how it's not just PMOs job to transform an organization and the concept of unblocking your team. This was a fascinating, rich conversation. Suzanne and I can talk a mile a minute.

Anyways, I, I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Thank you. 

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Hello, and welcome back to Talent Management Truce. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I'm joined by Suzanne Knight. [00:02:00] Suzanne is a Global Transformer and CPG and retail executive. Welcome to the show, Suzanne.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Thank you so much for having me, Lisa.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: My absolute pleasure. And we share a friend and former podcast guest in common, Christy Jones who, who speaks so highly of you.

I know you guys work together. So perhaps you could start off by sharing with us a little bit about your career path.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Sure. So I am a big picture transformer and I'm passionate about the future of work. I have a mixed background between industrial organizational psychology and then hardcore business on the finance strategy and organization and operations transformation space. I've moved through a decade in consulting into.

Five years as ACPG and retail executive, and now I'm actually transitioning into public speaking and more entrepreneurial endeavors.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Exciting. I love it. Okay, so in your past, so when you mentioned CPG and retail, can we [00:03:00] share who it was with?

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Sure. So I actually worked with Christie Jones at Philip Morris International, where I was leading transformation and organizational effectiveness for Canada. And then most recently I was leading transformation services for Walmart, Canada.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Beautiful. And I know you also have a background in, I think it was at Deloitte in your 

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Yes, yes. My human capital consulting experience, I think in 10 or 11 countries was with Deloitte.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Wonderful. Okay, so you've got this great mix of, of both consulting side and then being in the chair, right? Leading the, the, the, the talent type functions. So, let's talk a little bit about transformation. 'cause you even call yourself a global transformer. And I, I think, you know, for listeners, the, the listeners that, that tend to find the show are leaders globally, not just here in Canada in the HR, ODOE, you know, talent.

Space l and d. So I think it'd be interesting for those, you know, we hear about [00:04:00] transformation all the time and I certainly led some huge transformational projects. We didn't necessarily call them or lead with transformation at the time, so I'm hoping you can break it down for us. A couple of examples, big and small.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Sure. So what I think of as transformation, and at least the transformation work that I do, is mostly for focused on the organization and I look top down. So I start with the long range plan and what the organization wants to accomplish as a business. I. And this could involve its metrics and what success looks like over the next three to five years. I would then work with the organization, usually the PMO teams, strategy teams, executive team to break that down into what their priority is for the year. And then there's that translation piece, not just to an HR plan, which I might do as an HR executive, but to look at the systems of the organization and what. Is required for governance, for policy and process, for [00:05:00] metrics in your even quarterly metrics. Looking at then talent, talent strategy, workforce planning, organization design, technology, data, and how to bring it all together for the people with change management, communication and learning. And it's really about.

Bringing it together as a working, living organism that I think of as transformation because it's not about one area and making it really successful because if the other pieces haven't caught up, you'll run into roadblocks, for example, if you get the people side humming, but the technology isn't enabling that.

Success than either on the customer side or the employee side. You'll feel frustration. And it's the same thing if the technology side or the data side are miles ahead. You need the people to understand how to gather the information and use the tools and systems.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: so I, I like that you mentioned, you know, it's like a living organ. Because I talk a lot about with my clients, the, the systems [00:06:00] design and the ecosystem that is the organization because everything is connected. And often I think you know, organizations see something that they want, you know, like results that they want or, or an environment that they want where everybody's, you know, on the same page, work in the same direction, whatever that looks like.

But they. They may not think about it globally enough, right? They don't have that gestalt, that German word, that big picture to then break it down and, and can help people connect the dots. They might sort of do it piecemeal where they're coming at it over a little bit over here, a little bit over here, or it's all on the PM office, you know, that kind of thing.

And, and they're under resourced and maybe don't have the same kind of broad picture necessarily. So, so it's, could you share. What's a, what's a smallish example of transformation that you've led? Just to get, help people picture it a little bit.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Sure. Well actually, Lisa, you said two brilliant things that I would like to pick up

on before I 

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: thank [00:07:00] you.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: question. So one of them is you said ecosystem. So I was talking about the system of an organization and that organization. As a living thing. A living being. But you talk about ecosystem, and I actually think it's so important to look at the organization within a system of economy, of industry, of the entire customer set of expectations of competitors, and. You know, where I was talking was about how to get it humming on the inside, but none of that can happen without being so clear and connected into what's happening outside. And so I'm, I'm really glad you brought that up. And then the second piece I wanted to pick up on is what you said about PMO. There are so many organizations that actually say, oh, it's PMOs job, or It's transformation team's job to transform and to guide the organization. But, but really if you democratize the transformation so that there can be [00:08:00] true ownership amongst every leader, every person, and that everyone feels that ownership that. Really, they understand the role, the, the part that they play in making it successful. It will be far more successful than if you kind of outsource it into one team and then everybody else can step back and say, no, no, PMO will sort it out for us. So I, I wanted to pick up on those. And then you, you asked me about small transformations. So this is where the smallest, but still so impactful. Transformation could be as simple as facilitating sessions with a leadership team focused on one topic that impacts multiple areas of the system. So as an example, it could be employee engagement, it could be about saying how do we.

Activate the people side of our organization to understand what we're trying to accomplish, but to feel their role and their importance and their value, and to make sure that [00:09:00] they're recognized because transformation is never just a day job, even if you're in a constant stream of transformation and change. That always happens in addition to business as usual work. And it's hard and it takes time, it takes effort. So facilitating a session can be hugely impactful in a transformation even though it's one meeting.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Yeah, and, and I mean, I would expand on that because you know, in. I actually say no to, to, you know, gigs, you know, where people say, can you come in and do a 90 minute thing on X? And they've got this massive thing they're trying to affect. And I'm like, I, you know, it's just, it's only gonna go so far and I've got my reputation here, so I, I have done like, if it, if we're calling it a keynote.

So it's a moment of inspiration. Few key ideas. Great. Let's not call it a training though because by the time, you know, you've got 30 minutes just to get people settled and on the same page before you're getting to any contents and. You can do lots of cool stuff, but in the end, I think that the, that what people walk away [00:10:00] with is, is more limited than, than people would like to think, you know?

And they only wanna give so much time. So for me, transformation, when you mention that example of, of leadership training I. What what came to mind is I worked with this amazing small team, small management team for a staffing firm last year, and we worked together well, I'm still working with some of them, but it was, it was, it was team coaching one-on-one coaching and some training and with sustainable action plans baked in so that there was momentum created to me that it, it was small-ish and it was robust.

I don't know. What are your thoughts around that?

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: No, I totally agree with you, and it's so true. Like in one session, and I do a lot of keynotes in one session, you can expand somebody's thinking in one session. You can give them new ideas that they can take away and process later. You can't start deliver and finish a transformation

in a. Session. And when I [00:11:00] think about the timeline for true transformation, it is a multi-year journey.

So you asked me for the smallest example. I can transform somebody's thinking with an idea in 90 minutes. I cannot transform an organization or the way that people think holistically about their workforce or to mobilize their workforce for change in that time. So absolutely, we're completely aligned on that.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: I love that you just broke that down further for us because it is, it's about degrees of transformation and I really like, I dunno, I'm really liking the whole word transformation, you know, because it really kind of. Creates this visual of, you know, here's where we are and here's where we wanna be. We wanna trans, like transformers.

My son used to play with those toys, you know, like it was a truck turned into a monster man kind of thing, right? Like, I'm not saying we wanna do that with organizations, but we are moving into something related and different and ideally more impactful. More effective. So what's a, what's a large [00:12:00] scale example that you've personally lived and led that you'd be willing to share with us?

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Sure. So I can think of one, well, I can think of a lot, but the ear, the areas of transformation that I would say are really big are when you get into something that impacts every part of an organization, like a transformation around new ways of thinking and working. So this is where you say. When we look at our competitors, they're a lot faster than we are.

They are somehow able to come up with an I idea and to scope it, size it, build it, and operationalize it in months while it takes us years. So how do we. With that speed. And that could be about bringing in new practices like business agility or lean. It could be about bringing in new tools. It could even be about taking a look at the tools you have, the digital landscape and saying, actually what we have today is not working for us.

It's really complex. [00:13:00] Another area could be policy, process, bureaucracy. You know, some of the challenges could be about unclear metrics and different groups working toward different things so that when you have a decision that needs to be made quickly, you can't make it quickly in a system where people are being measured on different areas, right?

Like the

best is to actually align them toward the most important things in the organization because then decisions can be made much faster. 'cause everybody knows what success looks like. 

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Well, yeah, because 1, 1, 1 of my clients, here's what that made me think of, is, well, anyways, there's the age old tension between, sales and marketing. Sometimes they're, they're actually aligned to report into the same person, but there's, there's this tension between marketing saying. Here's what we can do and sales has to sell it and, and vice versa.

But then there's also this, this one client I have, and they're in the agricultural industry. And so there's this major tension between [00:14:00] procurement and the nutrition side of things, right? It's for animal feed, because procurement's trying to get the cheapest, you know, ingredient, best quality, but cheapest.

Well, it's a, it's a dance and nutrition wants best quality period.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: yes.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: for the formulations because they're looking for, you know, that impact long-term for the customer and repeat sales, which impacts everybody. So, so it's interesting 'cause we've, we've chatted about how their goals on the surface are different.

They're looking at different things, they're looking at different metrics. So we're working at how do we kind of bring that together. So I really appreciate that example of the unclear metrics.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Yes. And actually I can give you a couple others.

So in the retail space, there's a constant tension between supply chain and looking at what will keep our channels from clogging up our distribution centers from clogging up, and then the stores and the merchandising team saying, how do we ensure that we don't have out of stocks? Right? You want enough? [00:15:00] Inventory. The customers always have access to what they wanna buy, but you don't want too much that will clog up your systems. It, it's a challenge because those groups are often measured on different things. 

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: thank you again for that example because, because my son, who most listeners, if they've been with me for a while now is 17 and he's now working at home since part-time. And it's so funny 'cause he'll come on. Oh, they pulled me into warehouse. 'cause we got two truckloads and it's overwhelming and we're trying to get it on the shelves and you know, now we're heading, it's October now and we're heading into Christmas season.

And so the shelves are in the actual store are, I've never seen them. So Chuck a block with stock and it's simply because they got overrun with stuff coming in, in the back and they had to make room. Right. Anyway, so it's just, it's just as a, as a clear example of. Usually they get it right, but it's a little tricky right now with supply chain and stuff.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: a hundred percent. And I love that. That example is something that anyone can see and feel when they walk [00:16:00] into the store. When their favorite product is out of stock. They might actually go to another store to buy their entire basket because they need that one item. And so why waste their time if they have to go to another store anyway, they might as well get everything there.

So it's a really important one.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: I love that. Okay, so, so this is kind of neat listeners 'cause we're, we're, we're not just talking about, you know, organizationally, but we're talking about what's like the, this is important stuff, right? The work that you do, that we do to support our organizations with transformation has. Down the line impact on our customers, right?

Like, you know, for any business, any industry. So it's really fascinating. I think we're painting that picture. So let's, let's kind of morph into the story that you wanna share with us.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Sure. So this actually goes back to my consulting days. I was consulting for a major airport and the focus was on customer experience, which at the time we called guest experience, the guests coming through the airport and the [00:17:00] focus was on taking a. An airport that was from building mode, building a new terminal into operationalization and saying, how do we make this an amazing place where guests can have wonderful meals, they can enjoy their layover.

When people are picking up their family and friends from the airport, they can have a. Comfortable place to stop and have surprise and delight while they're there. And I was facilitating an executive conversation that was focused on prioritization. And in that conversation there was a hard. Point to say this airport was very much focused on the environment and sustainability because airports use so much fossil fuel and they're not exactly a, a sustainable area, so how do we actually make it more sustainable as as a space?

So that was a big priority. Then on the other hand, there was that guest experience and it really came to a [00:18:00] head when. There was a story about a business passenger moving through the airport at five 6:00 AM and it was dark outside. It was winter, and this person was exhausted getting ready to do a four or five day travel stint, and they went to the moving sidewalk and the moving sidewalk in the airport was turned off and there was a sign saying.

Turned off for environmental impact. This was a sustainability measure and the lights above were dimm. This person's tired, and they're thinking, I don't wanna do that walk. I want to be in the light, the bright. I don't wanna feel like I'm falling asleep here and having to drag my carry on through a terminal that is, you know, pretty, pretty close to dark.

And you know, you're weighing the priority to say. You have fewer customers in that morning period, so it is actually more sustainable to keep the sidewalk off and to keep the lights dimm. But then you have your customer who is actually [00:19:00] having a really negative experience going through your space. And by the way, this is a business customer who's traveling every week who can choose to use your airport or another local airport.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: who's being? Well, it's almost like, you know, 'cause he's happens to be traveling early when. Know there's fewer people. He is, he, there's some, I mean, I don't, I think discrimination's a tough word, but you know, like he's, he's at a disadvantage.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: A hundred percent. So that was the type of discussion that I was facilitating to say, how can you make the right decisions? And I believe it comes down to metrics and to alignment. Because amongst the leadership team, there has to be agreement around the order of priority. And something in an airport context is safety and security are the table stakes.

Nothing is more important than safety and security. And if you're weighing safety and security versus. Sustainability or guest experience, safety and security have to come first no matter what. But [00:20:00] then after your non-negotiables, after your table stakes, you actually have to have the hard discussions and say, while many things are important, we actually have to pick the most important and put our metrics and make our decisions. In some kind of hierarchy so that when we get to that hard decision, and you have your ESG team versus your customer team trying to put forward initiatives, there has to be a clear answer. Otherwise, every decision is going to take time.

it's going to take 

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: right? You know, which is some, a tool that I really like using. With, with various teams actually, but just like, like, let's decide when we hit these these pivotal moments, right? That, that we have an agreed way that we're going to kind of assess, evaluate the issue and come to that decision.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: That's it because speed is of the essence. And think about how many decisions an organization would be making every hour. If you can shave 30 seconds off every [00:21:00] decision, imagine how much faster that system, that that organism is going to move.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Beautiful. So are you able to share with us kind of where, where this group landed? When it came to the whole moving sidewalk? You know, being turned off at five in, in the morning.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Yeah. So that was one where they did decide to go with the customer because they said Guests have to be our priority in the hierarchy. That is where we're going. But there were certainly sustainability focused initiatives that stayed on the horizon, particularly where there was not such an immediate conflict.

So they did figure it out, but the sidewalks and the lights went in favor of the guest.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: So interesting. 'cause this is, you know, businesses are faced with this kind of decision all of the time, right? That like you, unfortunately you can't have all things. It, it just is not feasible. So having, you know, we're really talking about ways to. You know, facilitate people [00:22:00] thinking through what is the right decision, knowing that we're gonna have to kind of give up a little bit on one side perhaps.

And so what does that mean about, you know, it's a domino effect. Okay? So we're not doing sustainability at that moment with turned off moving sidewalks and lights. So how can we put our energy against something else where we can invest in sustainability and, and, and make it so that it doesn't impact the guests the same.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Absolutely. And what I'm hearing so much of now is on the talent side. How do you reconcile the employee experience and that lifecycle experience of your people with the financial realities of the economy, rising interest rates, customers not able to shop as much in that retail consumer? Good context. This is a really hard time for employees and for talent professionals. Are, are you seeing that Lisa?

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Oh my God, yes. And everybody I talk to, so it's. the example that keeps coming up, it's [00:23:00] really recurring, is so many workplaces moving from two days in the office to three, I don't know what's in the water, but every second person I talked to lately, the last few weeks is going through this and, and leaders not.

Not only employees, but the leaders who are having to uphold this change, including my best friend right now, she's going through a hell of a time with her team. They're struggling with it themselves, right? Because, because the argument is we've shown for three years that we can actually be just as if not more productive working from home and people get used to, to this you know, giving up that commute and having more energy for their family.

So, so, you know, they're, they're having to make this shift. And it's on top of everything being more expensive and, you know, global politics and, and wars and, and, you know, a lot of angst and anxiety going on around us environmentally. So, yeah, I don't know. What are your thoughts? What are you 

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Yeah, I'm, I'm seeing that too. There's this feeling of being. [00:24:00] Unsettled that is so justified.

You know, we just had World Mental Health Day and I've had so many people open up in my network to say, I'm having a really hard time. This isn't an easy time to be in the workforce or out of the workforce. And I actually had lunch with a friend on the weekend and this friend was talking about that return to the office.

But also many companies have gone through rounds of layoffs over the last. Six months over the last year. And so people who are still in that workforce, in those jobs are doing one and a half or double duty even more. So this friend I was spending time with said, you know, I haven't gone to the gym in six months, and this was an avid exerciser who fought tooth and nail to get back into shape and to, to get into a really. Comfortable routine of exercise and eating well, and, and they've lost it now. And I think it's [00:25:00] so relatable to say with all the stress we're dealing with in the world, with going back to the office as well, trying to navigate family dynamics, drop-offs, pickups, double duty, doing extra jobs when those people who were doing them before are no longer with the company. It's a lot and I think it's just widespread.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Oh it is. It's yeah, there's a lot of struggling out there. I mean, so not absolutely everyone, but there really is a trend. So tell me and the listeners a little bit about, so if you came into an organization that was really saying, you know, look. We've got people doing double duty and they're starting to get really annoyed and tired.

And yet we've got a hiring freeze. We've been through layoffs. Everybody's feeling the pinch at the grocery store. And you know, it's, it's kind of a, a tough, tough place to be. And we're trying to get people back in the office. So where would you start, Suzanne? Like where, you know, when, if [00:26:00] we take that transformation lens.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Sure. So I would start with looking at the financial reality of the business and saying, is it truly the table stake that we are where we have to be around the hiring freeze, and that there truly is no way to take a look and. Recalibrate. Okay, so that's the first place. If we establish that the financial position is the financial position, and absolutely there's no wiggle room, then I would look into what people are spending their time on. I would do a reconciliation of the top down list of priorities with the bottom up, where people are actually spending their time and look for discrepancies. Because if you have your workforce and people are working on lower priority initiatives, or the wrong. Things, or if there's duplication or overlap.

All of those areas give you capacity that you can reallocate to higher priority items with the same workforce and the same [00:27:00] number of people, and the same actual, actually the same people. So, so that's an easy place to start with the financial realities being what they are.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's capacity review and trying to figure out, you know, where do we, where do we have capacity that's untapped Because this is the thing when people feel. Frustrated, put upon overwhelmed because of workload, it's almost impossible for them to see forest for the trees, right? To be able to look up enough to kind of even self-assess, look at the workload and say, what needs to come off and where do I need help?

Figuring out what can go or what could be changed or scaled back. And so I would add that on top of any kind of capacity review. I think that that needs a personal touch. Like I, I think that there needs to be outside help, often coming in to actually have conversations with people so that it's non-threatening.

It's not because leaders, it takes a while to help leaders get to a [00:28:00] place where they can confidently and, and eloquently. Dig into people's capacity, where are they spending their time? And I think often it's misguided and people feel judged and defensive and we don't get anywhere anyways. 

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: I totally agree. No, Lisa, I agree fully because that's the thing, when it is your direct leader asking you where you're spending your time, there can be that. Feeling of judgment and when it's somebody fresh from outside, having the same conversations with everybody when it's a discussion that can be framed as how can we make your life easier?

How can we take things off your plate? And to, to have somebody say, and this could be the internal leader,

say, we see you. We see how hard you're working. We see how much you're doing. Let us now with help. help. you recalibrate to the things that are most important for the business and take other pieces off your plate that can be deferred.

It doesn't mean they're not important, it just means that they can be [00:29:00] done later. And there are things that are burning today that have to get done and that. Ideally, you don't need to work every night, every weekend, and to work through lunch every day because you're doing the firefighting. It's to say, this is the marathon, not a sprint.

And if you burn yourself out getting everything done today, then where are you gonna be in two weeks from now? Where are you gonna be six months from now? Because it's not gonna change anytime soon.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Yeah, well this is, you know, you're speaking about something that just lights me up. Like that's my personal passion. 'cause I, you know. Know, shared with people openly. I've been in and out of burnout and so that's part of my life's work at this point in my career is to help people through coaching with, and, and it comes up for everybody, right?

Like overwhelm and how do we actually, you know, take the break when just when you think you can't take the break, it's when you need to take the break. And how do you start to create muscle around that? Because when you start to do that, and I. Really experienced this, oh, here's the word, transformation in my personal life.[00:30:00] 

I found that, you know, it, it makes, everything else flows from that, right? When, when you are giving yourself the breathing space. But the, the thing too, about having, and, and it's tough in a time of budget cuts and, and, and austerity and so on, to say, oh, I gotta bring in an outside person. Well, sometimes that's, you can't, but if you can, even if.

You know, you're savvy about how much you're spending on it or for how long, bringing in that outside lens, and this isn't just, that I'm, I'm trying to promote Suzanne or myself, but you know, like someone that is neutral can help people look at their workloads differently. And also.

Mirror back up to the senior leadership team. Here's what's happening, because it's not always just about individual workloads and how can we create capacity. It's understanding what's coming. To your point earlier about being top down, what are we expecting? Because if we've just peeled back the resources in place and [00:31:00] morale is down, then.

We, something's gotta shift and it has to be the expectations and the goals What are your thoughts?

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: you're still right. I, I totally agree. So you have to shift back. But then I also think about that point of. So, so two pieces come to mind. One is, how do you ensure that people are out of that burnout phase so that they are able to give what they have to give at their best? To that organization because somebody in a constant state of burnout, aside from the human element and, you know, throw empathy out for a minute, let's talk actual productivity.

Somebody going through burnout will never be as productive as somebody smiling, skipping into the office saying, I'm ready to get my work done. And, and that can be the same person. Like how do you make sure that you are protecting your people and keeping them well for the long run and giving them the tools so that they can keep themselves well and keep their [00:32:00] health and their mental wellness in balance. So that that's very important to get the most outta people, even aside from the empathy piece. And then the second is the duplication and overlap. I have talked and worked in so many organizations, both as a consultant and an executive, where I realized people are doing. 50% of the same job. People are doing 80% of the same job. You can have somebody doing strategy for an area and somebody doing implementation for an area, and if they're part of different teams, I guarantee there's a lot of overlap because nobody's implementing in a vacuum. They're thinking about strategy and what will create the impact, and somebody doing strategy is not gonna just let it go the second the.

The strategy is passed off, right? How do you get those people to work as one and to be absolutely clear about where their roles and responsibilities start and end? Or within channel teams, you can have data groups doing [00:33:00] analysis for one channel and for another channel. And guess what? The reports can be 95% the same, going to the same executives, and maybe nobody figures it out for what could be years.

This is a real example by the way of duplication.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Well, and then on top of it, so it is interesting because I think that that, you know, organizations, cultures get into ruts, right? And so we're, we've got these same reports, and, and in the end, you know, who's reading them? Are we actually actioning them? How are, you know, how mindful are we being, when we take in this information, are we actually using it to, to drive decisions?

And if we're not, then let's not measure the data. I, I remember. Going through an experience when I was at Franklin Templeton. So shout out to Sherry Dondo, who's been a, a guest as well, a good friend of mine, and was my boss for years. But we, we were really she taught me this like, to be really choosy to look at all of the analytics that we were using within the HR department to understand, you [00:34:00] know, and informed decisions and the advice we would give to senior leaders, be choosy about what we're looking at and what we're choosing to share.

Because if in the end it's just noise. It's not, the other thing that comes up, is this concept of meeting culture. 'cause you can have reports and data that isn't actually helping. It's creating noise. And then if meeting culture, and I call it culture 'cause I'm not just talking about the format of a meeting, I'm talking about how meetings are looked at and and done in an organization, if there's a lot of updates and people bringing.

You know, multiple team members because they wanna be surrounded by their people to meetings then, then we are losing efficiencies big time and creating frustration.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: It is so true. Okay, so picking up on both those points,

one is the meeting culture piece. I believe that in many organizations, that's to diffuse responsibility and ensure that [00:35:00] you as a leader do not have to make a decision, or you as a team member do not have to make a decision that maybe your leader will disagree with.

So you bring everyone with you so that it can all be a group decision, but. If there was clarity around authority for decision making, and I don't mean hierarchical authority. I mean, who can make which decisions with which impacts, and who has to be involved and who's being brought along just out of fear. Right, that can really fast track how decisions get made and how you can get to delivery. If you can say that you wanna unblock your team as a leader and make decisions as quickly as possible, or help your team get those decisions made, then they can spend more time delivering and adding value and impact rather than chasing answers.

So that's a, that's a. Key point to productivity. Another one is the reporting that you mentioned, Lisa. So with the reports, if [00:36:00] organizations look at the recipients of the reports as customers and they say, what is actually a value to you? Do you want a 60 slide deck talking about. Or do you want a one page place mat?

And how often do you need it? Like, what is your decision cycle that can make work so much faster and just take things off the plate?

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Absolutely. And you know, I, I find it interesting 'cause in the HR and talent sphere, a lot of. My clients, for instance, they get just because they're so inundated, right? They're so busy. 'cause they have such broad responsibility, they, they're producing this stuff and feel the need to kind of make the case, right?

'cause they're not revenue generators. So make the case and provide, you know, kill people with these 60 slide deck and, and it's not. Necessarily helping, right? So how can we really boil it down to still to the essence, right? And, and I think part of it, to your [00:37:00] point is, is involving your clients, your stakeholders, and understanding what do they actually need?

How are they using this? And I love that your, your point about understanding their decision cycle. What's the actual timing? The seasonality of it all. Right. Because it, it, it changes over the course of, of a fiscal year. The other thing too that I wanted to pick up that you were mentioning just around, you know, how decisions get made as you use this, this phrase unblock your team.

If you wanna unblock your team, then digging into how decisions get made is, is an important step. Really love that.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Thanks, Lisa, and this is something that I do regularly when I have connections with my teams, and I've done this over the past number of years. I've said, what can I do to help you do your best work? I. And to help you be your best self. And so sometimes unblocking them is about clarifying roles and responsibilities, or eliminating duplication.

Sometimes it's about chasing down a stakeholder and getting an answer, or sometimes it's about nailing myself down to [00:38:00] say, I wish I had a bit more time for the decision, but my team's waiting. They're sitting. I need to just decide and if I make the wrong decision. Fine, so be it. We recalibrate, but I need to keep them moving and keep them able to deliver to their best and not sit, because there's a certain level of frustration when you are going in those ebbs and flows of sit. Wait, and then by the way, you have to work through the weekend because I didn't get my act together to empower you to move on the Wednesday. I waited till the Friday night and now you're stuck. That's not fair to the people either. So if you have 80% of what you need to make a decision, 90% make the decision.

Don't wait for the a hundred percent

and don't 

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: That's. exactly it. You know, Suzanne, I love this because what I just wrote down was, and I find this is so helpful for us as individuals is, is sometimes we get so stuck, so stuck and frozen, immobilized about a decision we need to make [00:39:00] that sometimes it's about breaking it down, saying what's what's.

What part of this decision or what's one thing I could do that kind of moves me towards the decision, even if I'm not ready to, to fully commit? Right. So, you know, as an example, I was trying to, I'm thinking about, well, I'm actually decided yesterday, but I'm, I'm going to change my scheduling software Right.

To a new provider. 'cause I'm not happy with the one I have. and it's been a long time coming and it's just been like, oh, I've just been putting up with, with it. And the. Crappy functionality because it's, it's, I've been so busy, it's so easy. But, so I was really grappling with this like three weeks ago and I was like, do I do, do I pull the trigger?

And I thought, okay, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna give myself till, till next week to just look at alternatives. But I'm not gonna make a decision. I'm just gonna, I'm actually gonna look at the research though. I'm gonna set aside. Half an hour, whatever, and then I'm gonna give myself a bit of time to just sit with it and I'm gonna make the decision here.

So it was kind of like creating a project milestones for, for one little decision, but it [00:40:00] really worked because I was stuck. I wasn't doing anything.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: Yes. That's such a great approach and it really is about that self-awareness to say, I feel stuck. What can I do to unblock myself? And sometimes it's putting a timeline, sometimes it's collecting more information, but I. It really starts with the self-awareness and reflection to say, why haven't I been able to make the decision and what do I need to do to get to that?

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, so we are almost at the end of our time together. I think we might have to have you back because I think you and I have so many other things that we wanna talk about that we didn't, we didn't get to. 'cause clearly we're both very enthusiastic about, about all this. So just one final wrap up.

Question if I can, if you were to define transformation, come up with a Susan Knight version of, of what transformation is, what would you call it?

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: So I would call it. [00:41:00] Figuring out an outcome that is meaningful and figuring out the systems and pieces, tactics, areas that have to change to accomplish that outcome. And if you were going to ask for the Suzanne Knight version, I would also add stay true to your values. Always continue with integrity and make sure that that change is sustainable for your organization, yourself, your stakeholders.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: Gorgeous. Love it. I hope people are taking notes because I am. Thank you so much. I love it. I really appreciate what.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate2: I loved it, Lisa. I know. I would love to come back. Thank you for having me.

Suzanne K GMT20231011-152151_Recording_separate1: My pleasure. [00:42:00]